Damien's mental health history

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[76387]

76387 Posts in 6760 Topics by 681 Members
Latest Member: wiltar

[Kimbo]

Well Everyone Loves Boobie... haven't you seen the sit com? 

Again, I am not saying that Jason was Damien's anything, just that he had a specific personality type that fed into the whole situation.  I don't think Jason was Damien's guard dog, more that Jason was a necessary part of the killer equation.

We are talking presumptions here, which I'm not a fan of. Still I think that there was a mix of personalities that - on their own "power", if you will - would not equate to murder in themselves. Damien was an idealist - Jason (and Jessie to a lesser degree) were doers. IMO, their combination was necessary.

Check out the other killer combos, like Perry Smith and Richard Hickock. There is a certain dynamic there, as I'm sure you know.

Kimbo

[addict]

Again, I am not saying that Jason was Damien's anything, just that he had a specific personality type that fed into the whole situation.  I don't think Jason was Damien's guard dog, more that Jason was a necessary part of the killer equation.

And what part did he play?  You said he was a pitt bull, but not an attack dog or guard dog.  He was just "a necessary part of the killer equation."  What does that mean?  What made him a necessary part of the equation? 

Still I think that there was a mix of personalities that - on their own "power", if you will - would not equate to murder in themselves. Damien was an idealist - Jason (and Jessie to a lesser degree) were doers. IMO, their combination was necessary.

Damien was an "idealist," and Jason was a "doer"?  What are you saying?  That Damien was the brains and Jason just did whatever he was told (e.g. - mutilate children)?  Or what? 

You say you have a problem with generalizations, but you called Jason a "metaphorical pit bull" - I just want to know what you meant by that. 

[Kimbo]

This is all supposition about Jason, Addict, yet everything else has been done to death before, and when you mentioned Jason’s role I found it interesting as I have often thought of the relationship that existed between the three.

It is uncommon for “hands on” murder, that takes some time and interaction, to be done by more than one person. When there are two (or three) involved there is typically a strong personal dynamic.

So back to the generalisations, or as I prefer to call them, summaries. Damien was the ringleader, Jason was the pit bull (explanation – ready to rip apart anything) and Jessie was the pit bull in training. Just my humble opinion, of course.

Can we discuss, in the presumption of <gasp> the convicted killers' guilt, what Jason's "role" might have been?

"Three child killers walk into a bar..." Nah, I don't buy it. There was a plan and a definite hierachy.

[Miranda]

'Caesar's Wives'

Originally to do with being perceived to be above suspicion I think - Shakespeare??

Then rather morphed in to a more general 'must be seen to be above suspicion and even a hint of anything negative - I guess as considered a 'role model' type position!  Anyway have to be seen to be cleaner than clean.  Purer than pure.  Sort of an inference of that lovely quote in Latin that escapes me to the effect of 'who polices the custodians??'

Over here, for example, if an accountant's wife makes a 'mistake' on her income tax returns then he can be struck off!

It actually takes great courage to admit to a failing - especially when it is a professional issue and the admission is made in a court of law!  Having said that, it was most probably the path of least resistance for Ridge to take in order to effect damage limitation for the whole WMPD.

Miranda

Yeah - interesting how Boo's name is so frequently cited by some!  Now me, too!

[LaCosaNostra44]

Addict,

There's much being said in your posts so I'm only gonna address some of them because well....that's what I want to do...

I don't have to prove Gallien did not falsify records.  You're the one making the claim - it's not up to me to prove a negative.  Show me exactly why know for a fact that Gallien falsified those records and the psychotic disorder diagnosis should stand and not the final one.

I know you're not going to take this as proof of anything, but many therapists keep mutiple records of a patient's care ...an official and unofficial record. The official record is what goes to the courts, to the insurance companies, etc. It's done for a number of reasons....one is to to protect the client...the other is to protect the therapist should anything "go wrong" with the patint during or after treatment....

Even if you want to disregard the Woods document.....The psychotic disorder needs to stand because Echols as exhibiting psychosis long after his treatment ended...the Shettles Letters?

Which by the way is one example of Echol's being dishonest on LKL....

Woods was acting in a forensic role. He was able to examine the complete medical record. Personally I would put some weight to  his assertions more than the doctors treating him since there seemed to be little contiuity of care.

Do you have a problem with the capitalization of Psychosis (ie official diagnosis) or with the informal term "psychotic"....bcause anyone who thinks their body is changing through Kool Aid....that everyone will pay on Halloween..that they are being prsecuted by the entire world..... that has hallucinations of men standing at th foot of their bed that take them on long rides at night.....is psychotic.....

His mother interfered by  letting him return to WM instead of following the recommendation that he be committed long term. In turn the hopital may have given the "final diagnosis" you refer to as a CYA move...(CYA not being a medical or clinical term)

As far as Jason, Echols and Baldwin were inseperable. Look at the two of them during the movies. They play off each other.

As far as Jason being there. The most telling moment is when Paul Ford asks him if he thnks Echols did it. The look on Baldwin's face, his physical and verbal responses is the provrbial "Shitting a Brick" (also not amedical or clinical term).

And I think Kimbo's examples of Killer Pairs or Group Dynamic Murders are excellent. ....for many of them, the one that appeared the most meek and mild....is the most violent in the acts...whether that is to prove something (loyalty, deviousness, the ability to be violent) or whether it is a "competition"....

It is believed that Chris was primarily Baldwin's victim....(as corrobaorated by Misskelley, Carson, and some DQ alpha stuff)...assume that is true.... assume  the group dynamics of E/B/M as pointed out by Kimbo are true.. ......isn't it ironic that Chris suffered "overkill" compared to Michael or Stevie?

[Farm]

It's really not that complicated Addict.

The evidence clearly shows that Echol's was psychotic.

You CHOOSE not to believe this.

The evidence clearly shows that Echols and Baldwin were drug addled dabblers in Satanism.

You CHOOSE not to believe this.

The evidence clearly shows that Misskelly confessed again and again of his own free will.

You CHOOSE not to believe this.

If you are going to call these "wrongful convictions" - you're going to have to do better that take each item individually and offer lame assed alternate possibilities for them.

It didn't work at trial, it hasn't worked in ANY appeal - and it's not gonna get it on a discussion board either.

[addict]

Hiya LCN.

I know you're not going to take this as proof of anything, but many therapists keep mutiple records of a patient's care ...an official and unofficial record. The official record is what goes to the courts, to the insurance companies, etc. It's done for a number of reasons....one is to to protect the client...the other is to protect the therapist should anything "go wrong" with the patint during or after treatment....

It's possible, I guess - I have no idea what therapists often do or don't do.  I think it's also possible that was really the final diagnosis that Gallien thought was correct.  Either way, I don't see how an objective summary of 500 could fail to include even a note about the final diagnosis (especially when it shows up in Charter's summary index as well). 

I realize none of you believe it, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Even if you want to disregard the Woods document.....The psychotic disorder needs to stand because Echols as exhibiting psychosis long after his treatment ended...the Shettles Letters?

The Shettles letters occurred after he was arrested, and I think the situation could have caused some sort of break that was worse than anything in the past.  Maybe not.  I don't know.  That being said, I don't know if I'd disregard Woods altogether.  There's also all the stuff he told Sherry Dockins after all.  Sometimes I think the Dockins stuff was colored by the attempt to get disability, sometimes I don't.  Like I said, I'm not sure what I think, and I honestly don't know enough about therapy or psychiatry to tell anyone what is or isn't true.  But I do think objective summaries of 500 should include both "sides" of the story, whether or not people agree with them.  And that was my point in bringing this all up.

Which by the way is one example of Echol's being dishonest on LKL....

Yeah, I think that was one of the issues I had.  I don't really buy the idea that those letters could have been fictional writing, and from memory (without checking the video or transcript), it seems to me that was what he told LK.

Do you have a problem with the capitalization of Psychosis (ie official diagnosis) or with the informal term "psychotic"....

My problem really lies in "objective" summaries of 500 that leave out things.  That was what started this - it's not correct to say the diagnosis following his second stay at Charter was "Psychotic Disorder" cause that was not the only diagnosis offered in 500 from Charter - it was not the one that showed up in their summary or the final diagnosis from Gallien.  Therefore, any "objective" summary of 500 would include the final diagnosis.  I guess no one gets that point, but I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand. 

His mother interfered by  letting him return to WM instead of following the recommendation that he be committed long term. In turn the hopital may have given the "final diagnosis" you refer to as a CYA move...(CYA not being a medical or clinical term)

His mother let him return to WM after he was released from St. Vincents.  Is there a recommendation by St. Vincents that he be committed long term?  Cause I certainly don't recall that being the case.

Is there indication that she interfered from Oregon when he was released from Charter?  I'm interested in this claim, since a few of you have made it, but I still don't understand what you mean by it. 

As far as Jason, Echols and Baldwin were inseperable. Look at the two of them during the movies. They play off each other.

As far as Jason being there. The most telling moment is when Paul Ford asks him if he thnks Echols did it. The look on Baldwin's face, his physical and verbal responses is the provrbial "Shitting a Brick" (also not amedical or clinical term).

Their playing off each other and Jason's reply to Paul Ford don't strike me in the same way they do you.  That's not really surprising, since I think we all interpret the way he looks during either situation depends on what we think of his guilt/innocence.  You can't interpret his look without filtering it through your beliefs about this case, in other words.

[addict]

The evidence clearly shows that Echols and Baldwin were drug addled dabblers in Satanism.

What evidence is there that Baldwin was a drug addled dabbler in Satanism, Farm?

[Farm]

Yes, I forgot, His grandparents were ALSO just confused,

Did you ever stop to consider exactly how many people you "write off" as confused?

Anyone who claims the convicts were Satanista.

Anyone who claims Echols was psychotic.

Anyone who claims the convicts confessed.

The Prosecurion.

The convicts family members.

The victim's families.

The WMPD.

The jurors.

Burnett.

The ASSC.

I hate to break this to you - but you look incredibly silly.

[addict]

Yes, I forgot, His grandparents were ALSO just confused,

Are his grandparents somehow related to the question of how Damien's mother interfered with his treatment?  Cause if you have some actual input on that I'd be very interested.

Did you ever stop to consider exactly how many people you "write off" as confused?

I think it's possible that the convictions are incorrect.  I don't think everyone was confused.  I just think that all of the evidence may not add up to what you are so sure it obviously means.  But to answer your question, yes, I have considered how many people were "confused" or "incorrect" or gave information that might not be directly relevant to the question of guilt - it's one of the reasons I know it's possible that I am wrong.  I'd bet people have been exonerated in the past with just as many people being confused, incorrect, etc. however.

Anyone who claims the convicts were Satanista.

I just wanted to know what evidence there was that Jason was a drug addled Satanist, cause you claimed that evidence was obvious.  I'm still interested in what that evidence is if you decide to back up your statement at some point.

I don't think that everyone who claims Damien was a Satanist is necessarily "confused."  I think his beliefs were an amalgam of many different belief systems, so I suppose I agree more with people who call him a "dabbler" than a "Satanist" - I could be incorrect/confused. 

Anyone who claims Echols was psychotic.

I said I was confused about whether or not I think Echols was pyschotic, not that everyone else was.  I said objective summaries of 500 should include the final diagnosis by Gallien and Chater's summary index.  I thought I made that clear; I apologize if I confused you.

Anyone who claims the convicts confessed.

There's obviously a confession (or a few) from Jessie, so anyone claiming that he confessed is not confused.  I don't believe Carson.  I think the softball girls misinterpreted Damien's statements, so I guess I do think they were confused.  I think people confuse what Jessie Hurst's statement meant, though I don't think Hurst was "lying" (though I may be the only supporter who holds that view).  I think he admits to being a bit confused, and I do think some of that statement is confused (e.g. - personally, I don't think Damien saw "Branch" beat his stepson to death), but not all of it. 

The Prosecurion.

I don't think the Prosecution was confused.  I think Fogelman and Davis did a kick-ass job at what their job was, or Damien and Jason would not be in prison today (I think most prosecutors would have secured a conviction against Jessie, considering the confessions).  I'm willing to believe Fogelman and Davis think they got the right guys.  Most of the time.

The WMPD.

I do think Ridge was a bit confused.  But I also believe he had the best of intentions, if that counts for anything.

Burnett.

You know, I'm probably one of the few Supporters who does not hate Burnett.  I kind of like the guy.  Is that weird?

I hate to break this to you - but you look incredibly silly.

It's OK, Farm.  I can live with you/people thinking I look incredibly silly.  I think you're silly too, so it's all good.