When is Damien going to die?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[112885]

112885 Posts in 8614 Topics by 4618 Members
Latest Member: garrymoore

[taylorjaysmommy]

I would actually say that I have been anti dp, since adulthood, when I began being concerned with things outside of my own little world. 
This wm3 case has had me very torn though.  Very.  Damien and the dp.........do I feel sadness that he will be leaving us soon?  I would be lying if I said that I would be sad.  Will I be glad?  No, for some reason........the thought that a young man was such a monster and commited the crime that he did, deeply saddens me and I hate that this all happened.  But, it did.
An insane person should not and cannot be executed, because they were not capable of knowing what is right, wrong, what they were doing?  I can see why it is wrong to execute someone that really did not know what they were doing.  What is that mothers name that drown her sons?  Andrea Yates, I believe.  She is a perfect example of why some should avoid the death penalty.  She was insane, truly.  She still is. 
Damien is a different kind of nut though.  IMO he knew exactly what he was doing.  He planned it and carried it out and would have murdered more children and who knows who else if he had gotten the chance. 
I am fine with someone sitting in prison and rotting for the rest of their life.  This IMO is far worse torture than getting an i.v. and going to sleep eternally. 
See, here I go again, climbing back up on the fence.  Ughhhhhhhh, I am getting so frustrated. 

My wishes for Damien:
Rot in prison, until he is at least 110 years old.
No internet.
Supporter movement be stopped and all collected money given to Todd !
I would like to never hear his name again, unless something newsworthy, such as a prison beating, he grew another head, or something else bizarre.
I would like for them to offer to change his death penalty to life w/o in exchange for a detailed confession.  This to me would give a small amount of closure.  However, my child was not a victim. 

I have made an exception for Damien though.  Today.  It has been looming around me for quite awhile though.  I just finally found justification to 'me' to live with it.
I have virtually no problems at all with him being executed.  I don't.  He is horrible.  He is a monster.  He is thriving in a positive way off of the very murders that he commited.   I feel that I know Todd, even though it is just from here, and I cannot hardly stand that someone would do something this terrible to him, and his son and Stevie and Chris.    I guess I feel  a connection,  or kinship,  as parents to him.  I will not rally for Damien to be executed, but I will not rally against it either.  The craziness of all of this needs to stop.  Making a celebrity out of a baby killer. 
Oh good grief, this subject is way too much for me.  I can't handle talking about it anymore.  I'm not cowering away, but I am going to refrain from this thread, ok?  I think it is driving me buggy ! 

Sorry,
TJM

[mikespadre]

that is a completely rational feeling and thought process.  I understand that completely. however, on the other hand had he been remorseful for his crime and chalked it up to WHATEVER I to may feel different, but he was then and is now proud of what he had done and what the supporter movement has created in his name.  In his mind he is like a rock star with  tons of mindless groupies hanging on his every word.  but very soon that bell whom tolls for us all will sound and his time will end.

[sheer]

Dog,

It has nothing to do with forgiveness and it has nothing to do with what the killer asks for.

America's penal system is not one of rehabilitation, it is one of punishment. (Fact) So whether or not a killer admits his/her guilt means fuck all. If they've been sentenced, but then say: "oh hey man, yeah I did kill that woman and I'm sorry," it's not going to stop them from getting the DP. So once again, you are creating parameters that don't even exist to support your argument.

How can one country have the DP in one state, but not the other? That's FUCKED UP.

It always strikes me as slighty irrational when someone uses the, "well he took a life, so he gives a life" argument. It makes no sense whatsoever. It's NOT equal at all. Revenge would be torture and slow painful death, with a possible rape thrown in. That would be EQUAL. (dependant on the crime obviously)

But DP supporters shy away from that, less they look too barbaric.

Tell me, if your logic determines that the taking of a life equals execution, what do you do to someone who is found guilty of domestic violence? Just wondering.

sheer

[Farm]

You are such an incredible idiot, Dog.

You have already conceded the error in your comparison of the DP to a defensive act - yet you go on to use the same failed comparison again.

Let's see if we can do it in crayon for you.

If you think the perp. deserves to die when he is attacking the children

While in the act, the perp isn't being killed for attacking the children - he's being killed to protect them.

You can no longer protect them after their lives are gone.

They aren't "apples" either - you cannot replace them.

Now - see if you can start there and try to make some sense out of your ramble.

[DogIsYourName]

Farm,

Whether you call the reason "self defense" or "vengence," the bottom line is you would not kill the person unless they deserved it.  Sure, you can say you would protect the children because they deserved to live, but it is for that very reason that the perp. deserved to die in defense of those children.

He does not cease to deserve to die simply because the children can no longer be saved.  And vengence should deal him what he deserves -- that is the point of justice.  In this case, justice means death.

That's the bottom line.  Sorry you cannot accept such simple logic merely because it exposes your conflicting beliefs.  The fact that you cannot come up with one rational argument favoring life in prison should tell you something.  Remember -- If you find a conflict, check your premises - one of them is wrong.

[DogIsYourName]

Sheer,

Although you have your beliefs on the death penalty, they are simply illogical.  My analysis seems simple to me, but maybe you are in denial because you really want to hold onto your baseless beliefs.  That is fine.  But let me show you why mine make sense one last time.

It has nothing to do with forgiveness and it has nothing to do with what the killer asks for.

Any sentence lesser than death means we have forgiven the murderer to a degree.  They have stolen more than they have given back in return.  We should not, as a general rule, forgive murderers for what they have done.  Instead, we should strive to be as just as possible.

I believe there is a time and place for forgiveness.  If the murderer seeks forgiveness and is truly sorry for what they've done, then at least there is a reason that someone might forgive them.  Even then, it would be up to those handing out the punishment to judge.  Forgiveness is not a right of the murderer.

America's penal system is not one of rehabilitation, it is one of punishment. (Fact)

America's system includes tenants of punishment and rehabilitation.  However, rehabilitation has nothing to do with justice.  Justice is all about punishment, and that's what we are talking about here.  The punishment should fit the crime to the best degree possible.

So whether or not a killer admits his/her guilt means fuck all. If they've been sentenced, but then say: "oh hey man, yeah I did kill that woman and I'm sorry," it's not going to stop them from getting the DP. So once again, you are creating parameters that don't even exist to support your argument.

They should've admitted it before they were sentenced.  But nobody "deserves" to be forgiven.  Forgiveness is something given by the grace of those who chose to give it.  The State should not mandate forgiveness in any case.  But the trier of fact can chose to forgive the murderer if they see a reason to do so.

When the murderer does not admit guilt or seek forgiveness, there remains no reason to forgive them.

How can one country have the DP in one state, but not the other? That's FUCKED UP.

Apparently, you don't understand the point of having different states in the first place.  If they all must have the same rules, then what is the point of having different states?  The Federal Government controls the states only to the degree that they are allowed to do so under the Federal Constitution.  The rest is left up to the states.

It always strikes me as slighty irrational when someone uses the, "well he took a life, so he gives a life" argument. It makes no sense whatsoever. It's NOT equal at all. Revenge would be torture and slow painful death, with a possible rape thrown in. That would be EQUAL. (dependant on the crime obviously).  But DP supporters shy away from that, less they look too barbaric.

Even those who shy away have a more logical position than you.  You are saying the DP argument is crap because it does not provide full retribution, while at the same time arguing for EVEN LESS retribution.  While you're at it, why not just free them altogether?  It amazes me that you cannot see the inherent conflict in this argument. 

The point is, the most just punishment means providing the fullest retribution possible.  You cannot deny that the death penalty accomplishes that moreso than life in prison.

Tell me, if your logic determines that the taking of a life equals execution, what do you do to someone who is found guilty of domestic violence? Just wondering.

Give them something equal in return.  There is a range of punishments available, because an equal punishment would depend on the facts of the case.

[Miranda]

Sheer,

Although you have your beliefs on the death penalty, they are simply illogical.  My analysis seems simple to me, but maybe you are in denial because you really want to hold onto your baseless beliefs.  That is fine.  But let me show you why mine make sense one last time.

It has nothing to do with forgiveness and it has nothing to do with what the killer asks for.

Any sentence lesser than death means we have forgiven the murderer to a degree.  They have stolen more than they have given back in return.  We should not, as a general rule, forgive murderers for what they have done.  Instead, we should strive to be as just as possible.

Sheer said:-
America's penal system is not one of rehabilitation, it is one of punishment. (Fact)

I just have to chime in here.  I totally agree with Sheer on this!

America's system includes tenants of punishment and rehabilitation.  However, rehabilitation has nothing to do with justice.  Justice is all about punishment, and that's what we are talking about here.  The punishment should fit the crime to the best degree possible.


They should've admitted it before they were sentenced.  But nobody "deserves" to be forgiven.  Forgiveness is something given by the grace of those who chose to give it.  The State should not mandate forgiveness in any case.  But the trier of fact can chose to forgive the murderer if they see a reason to do so.

When the murderer does not admit guilt or seek forgiveness, there remains no reason to forgive them.

How can one country have the DP in one state, but not the other? That's FUCKED UP.

Apparently, you don't understand the point of having different states in the first place.  If they all must have the same rules, then what is the point of having different states?  The Federal Government controls the states only to the degree that they are allowed to do so under the Federal Constitution.  The rest is left up to the states.

And once again, I am in total harmony with Sheer here.  It is very strange, from a foreigner's perspective, that Americans are so proud of 'America' but have such a wide range of stand-points on some very basic matters, like the Death Penalty.  Hell, States do not even seem able to agree on what is the 'best' way to implement it.  Do DP states get uptight about campaigners from out of state taking part in anti dp rallies in their states? What happens if a cop sees something dodgy happening the other side of the road if it is over a State line?  Do they turn a blind eye?


And as for the 'forgiveness' angle - if it were not so serious a matter I would be falling about with laughter at the absurdity of the arguments presented!  You are a law abiding and God Fearing country (or conglomeration / federation of States) and yet the concept of 'forgiveness' is up to the individual franchised person?  Who is any one of us to actually 'forgive' someone or not?  Surely that is between the man and his maker?  Sure we can say that as an individual we 'forgive' someone for something and thus try not to feed that evil inner wolf. (reference other thread).  Lady Justice does not 'forgive' they merely, on behalf of the people, meet out punishment and retribution in order to protect the citizens.  One would never expect a family member to forgive a murderer of a member of their family, one is, however, pleasantly surprised and in awe when they do manage that publicly. 

In the same way one is disappointed (but not surprised) that there are some who seem to regard the ultimate punishment as a source of 'pleasure and exultation' rather than a rather sad act of commission by state authorised employees..  They do not relish watching street cleaners at work so why executions?   Any termination of anyone's life is wrong.  The moment it is glorified, as in legal execution, it makes the act of 'depriving life' something to be 'respected'.  Could this be why life is regarded so very lightly in some communities.  A high crime rate and murder rate is a rather sad indictment of the people who live in those communities - at the same time it is those same members of those communities who are the pool for the 12 man jury of peers who then weigh up the cases of the prosecution and the defence and cast their votes.    The Pope made some very pertinent points in one of his addresses in Australia.  We are devolving into a society which glorifies aggression and is far too accepting of cruelty, mental and physical, as well as condoning threatening and belittling verbal abuse.  It is becoming the norm and that is scary.

Lastly, if forgiveness is not an option then maybe those early day 'terrorists' or 'freedom fighters' should not be 'forgiven' for breaking free from the Imperial shackles of being a 'colony'?  Time passes and relationships change.  Look at the trade with Japan and Germany today!  Come to that what about civilians caught up in war when their country is under attack - we, The USA and GB have killed far more Muslims in their own lands than they have of us.*  God help us if they adopt some of the beliefs published here.  Having destroyed the infrastructure at least we are doing our level best to re-establish it - that is the wise course of action.

On that score, however,  I am finding it increasingly hard to look on the coming Olympic Games with any positive feelings whilst issues of Human Rights remain and whilst China thinks Mugabe is one of the 'good guys'.  Hell, the originators of the games were the same guys who formalised the concepts of 'democracy' and Zimbabwe and China are hardly exponents of that one!

Rant over and I have no idea where I left my asbestos suit.

Miranda

*  Statistics unavailable from the Crusades!

Tell me, if your logic determines that the taking of a life equals execution, what do you do to someone who is found guilty of domestic violence? Just wondering.

Give them something equal in return.  There is a range of punishments available, because an equal punishment would depend on the facts of the case.

Teach the spousal victim martial arts and let them beat the crap out of their partner?  That would be a great path to escalation - and when it ends in one killing the other the state can then step in and kill the survivor - aint marriage grand?

[kerriew]

Hi Miranda,

"Hell, States do not even seem able to agree on what is the 'best' way to implement it."

This is not true. Every State has a clear method of execution and a clear set of guidlines. Some States even have two methods and the inmate gets to pick.

"Do DP states get uptight about campaigners from out of state taking part in anti dp rallies in their states?"

No. The only people who get upset are the families of the victims when they have to listen to bullshit from protesters trying to save the life of the mother fucker who murdered their loved ones. I spoke on this once before and I won't go into detail. From personal experience I know how it feels to lose a loved one. When people protest it is like a slap in the face because what the hell makes a murderer life more valuable than my friend's life? The guy who killed my friend has been executed. I did not jump for joy or throw a party however, he deserved what he got when he chose to murder my friend. He gave up the right to his life.

"The USA and GB have killed far more Muslims in their own lands than they have of us.*"

Wow! I really can't believe you said this. IMO this is an insult. Remember 911? They started it. Your country was also affected along with many more.

"Teach the spousal victim martial arts and let them beat the crap out of their partner?  That would be a great path to escalation - and when it ends in one killing the other the state can then step in and kill the survivor - aint marriage grand?"

Many times when the woman is the one who is getting abused and ends up killing her husband, charges are dropped due to self defense laws in some states.

All that stuff you said about God, well I don't believe so I won't say anything

Peace
Kerrie

[Storm]

I think the death penalty is a real touchy subject. Im on both sides I guess you could say. When it comes to pedaphilia and child murder, dam right those fuckers should be tortured first, then killed, after they beg for death to come for awhile.  In other instances, Like, the men that robbed the bar and shot me, eventually killed someone at the 3rd robbery they did. At the first trial, they received death for that murder. About 5 years later, Az was redoing all of their death penalty cases, because the jury sentenced them to death, and it should have been the judge. I dont know all the legistics,but anyways, we had to go back to trial for a sentencing review. All of the people and family involved, even the murdered person's family pleaded to give them life instead. We all felt, but mainly i think it was up to the man's family that was murdered,  that the men involved did not deserve to die. Them spending the rest of their lives behind bars with no hope of release was good enough for all of us.

Our case was very different though. One of the criminals family was very helpful towards us victims. And we all kinda became close during this whole ordeal. I even went as far as to talk to the man that shot me, just us, to know why, and to make him know what he did to me. After I got that out, I felt a big relief. I know them spending their lives behind bars forever is horrible for them, and enough of a punishment for me.

But...If someone hurt my child in any way..oh you can bet i would ask to be one doing the torturing and killing to the person that did that. And I dont think there is any reason those fuckers should be able to live amoung us

[Miranda]

Hi Miranda,

"Hell, States do not even seem able to agree on what is the 'best' way to implement it."

This is not true. Every State has a clear method of execution and a clear set of guidlines. Some States even have two methods and the inmate gets to pick.
 

Exactly!  My point on the nail.  If there was more cohesion between the States then there would be an acceptable 'American'  method of execution consistent across the board.  Rather than the current set up where each state is autonomous.  Hell I seem to recall reading that they cannot even agree on what the 'lethal dose' is from one state to another.  The very idea of a 'lethal injection' is so counter to the hippocratic oath that no Doctor will administer.  Do your nurses subscribe to the same philosophies of healing arts?

"The USA and GB have killed far more Muslims in their own lands than they have of us.*"

Wow! I really can't believe you said this. IMO this is an insult. Remember 911? They started it. Your country was also affected along with many more.

I knew it would get some feed-back which is why I was oh so careful to include our country in it too.  I doubt very many Americans know the date of the attacks on London's public transport system in the way we all know the ghastly mess and tragedy of 9/11.

Unfortunately, though, that is not what started *it*.  *It* goes way back to times before the indiginous inhabitants of the 'Americas' were overtaken by Europeans!   The Romans were in charge of  lands in  the eastern Mediterranean region in the times of BC to AD.  Romans were originally 'Italians'.  Then of course all the ghastly slaughter of the Crusades - another series of 'Holy' wars.

These things are, on the whole, cyclical and if we do not manage to destroy the planet completely then the next civilisation to potentially rise to the top will either be Islamic or Oriental.  Both civilizations have had their turn at the top of the pile before - but, as I said, cyclical.  It always staggered me how impressed some are that the Old Testament refers to a circumference being 3 times the diameter - Pillars in King Solomon's  temple!  The Chinese had it to a whole mess of decimal places.  It was only relatively recently that mathematicians defined it as transcendental.  And thank god we are still not using Roman Numerals - that would never have got us to the Moon!  Our number system came from the Arabs!  They also 'invented' the concept/symbol of the zero - otherwise we would still be doing arithmetic in Roman numerals with no symbol for zero!

It is all so easy to totally forget that we are a sum of all our pasts and what has survived or endured down the ages.

What very early history do American school children do as part of the standard curriculum across all the States?  I believe that they do spend a bit of time on the Native American cultures before any settlers from Europe - but how much?  Again there were so many different and diverse cultures on your side of the planet.  Are they taught about the link between Mongolians and Native Americans?  Are they taught that the West Coast was 'colonised' by the Spanish descnedants?

I have no idea if things like Stone Age, Bronze Age etc are covered even though those Americans with European roots are descendants of those lines too. Just as we here in UK are a mixed bag of Nordic and Gallic, among others.  Hell the Celts were here in parts before the Saxons!  Hence the AngloSaxon thing!

Do you study the Greek or Roman civilisations at all?  I only wish we had spent time on the Arabs more rather than just limiting it to the Art and Architecture and The Moors of Spain!  And then there are the Egyptians!  They formalised land measurement and initiated taxes.

The conflict between the West and some  Islamic nations did not start with 9/11.  In the global view and taking a planetary perspective, that is merely another skirmish.  But it is *ours* and thus hurts us far more grievously.   But then so does each and every death hurt those close to them who are left.  My cousin (once removed) was not in NY on 9/11 and his partner and he had been on the phone so late the night before that she overslept and thus was 'late' for work.  They both would otherwise have been in their offices at the WTC.

It was ghastly.  It was terrible.  It was an act of war.  However it was not an act by a hostile country so there was no tangible 'enemy' but rather a race and a culture that some have chosen to turn against.  The way we wage war changes with each successive war, it is inevitable.  The States have been so lucky in that they have never, in their present incarnation, been invaded by hostile forces. The closest you have 'felt' that was Pearl Harbour and, now, 9/11.  The German submarines nearly made it quite close in the last world war but that cannot be counted.  The face off with USSR during the height of the Cold War was maybe the closest and that fear was fueled by the threat rather than the deed.

"Teach the spousal victim martial arts and let them beat the crap out of their partner?  That would be a great path to escalation - and when it ends in one killing the other the state can then step in and kill the survivor - aint marriage grand?"

Many times when the woman is the one who is getting abused and ends up killing her husband, charges are dropped due to self defense laws in some states.

Ah if that murder occurs as a direct result of self defence or defence of the children then of course that , in mitigation, resolves the legal issues there.  However I feel that we should be trying to inculcate an ideology where violence is not resorted to to resolve issues.  Nor should graphic violence be lauded in everything from cartoons, games, entertainment etc.  We are rapidly loosing the ability to communicate calmly and in a friendly fashion with those who oppose our points of view, we are resorting to trading insults, which is only one step away from threats which, in turn, is only one step away from physical act.  Just look at some of the posts here which are laden with insults and a degree of viciousness.

Expressing hate and violence is horribly close to the next stage which is the action of it. 

All that stuff you said about God, well I don't believe so I won't say anything

Peace
Kerrie

Bless yah' but that might just be taken the wrong way!  In the ecclesiastical sense.  So a 'thank you' will have to do!

On the DP the philosophy of an eye for an eye springs from the same source as Sharia Law.  Also the concept of punishing a killer by killing him only makes a farce of any moral arguments or discussions in my view.  And as far as I know Jesus Christ was a very successful Jew indeed.  Was he not a Semite too?

Miranda




[/quote]

[kerriew]

Hi Miranda,

 "The very idea of a 'lethal injection' is so counter to the hippocratic oath that no Doctor will administer.  Do your nurses subscribe to the same philosophies of healing arts?"

The doctors don't participate in the lethal injection nor do nurses because of the Hippocratic oath of not being able to bring harm or death to someone on purpose regardless of their beliefs. There are correctional officers that volunteer for the "death team" and they learn how to administer the lethal dose. It's very intense training. But one thing I don't understand is infection control for the inmate ??? However, there is a doctor present to pronounce the inmate deceased. This is usually the Medical Examiner-but not always.

"I doubt very many Americans know the date of the attacks on London's public transport system in the way we all know the ghastly mess and tragedy of 9/11"

July 7, 2005. 50 people were murdered Then on 7/21 attempted repeated attacks were intercepted.

"Unfortunately, though, that is not what started *it*."

I am referring to what led up to the 911 attack. It appears Bin Laden was terrorizing almost everyone.
1990-Jewish Rabbi, Meir Kahane assassination in 1990 was the first terrorist attact from Bin Laden

"What very early history do American school children do as part of the standard curriculum across all the States?  I believe that they do spend a bit of time on the Native American cultures before any settlers from Europe - but how much?  Again there were so many different and diverse cultures on your side of the planet.  Are they taught about the link between Mongolians and Native Americans?  Are they taught that the West Coast was 'colonised' by the Spanish descnedants?"

It's been along time since I was in elementary school and some time since my kids were in elementary school. But if I remember correctly, yes there is alot of focus on Native Americans and settlers from Europe because we learn our own history first. Isn't it like this in other countries? Then there is alot of focus on the ancient Greeks and Romans-mainly their mythology legends. American  history and World history is mandatory for high school students in my state-Maryland. American history is taught in 9th grade and World history is taught in 10th grade. The 11th and 12th graders can pick their history classes that include but not limited to American polital history, Civil War, Revolutionary War,.. etc, history of any country of their choice, history of women's rights, art history, ancient history, stone age history ...etc.

"The States have been so lucky in that they have never, in their present incarnation, been invaded by hostile forces. The closest you have 'felt' that was Pearl Harbour and, now, 9/11."

Yes but we are not untouchable. 9/11 was a wake up call. IMO It's different here now. I notice things I didn't before like how low a plane flys, or a foreign looking person not acting in a way I think is normal, normal discarded trash such as bags or boxes become suspicious also. Trust me I don't envy countries where terrorist attacks happen everyday. It's sad.

"However I feel that we should be trying to inculcate an ideology where violence is not resorted to to resolve issues.  Nor should graphic violence be lauded in everything from cartoons, games, entertainment etc"

I agree that is why our executions are not public like some countries in the Middle East and I think some South American countries also do public executions-I don't know, I could be wrong. But I firmly believe that most values are learned at home an the parents should teach children good values. However, this does not always work.

Peace
Kerrie

[sheer]

Kerrie,

I am referring to what led up to the 911 attack. It appears Bin Laden was terrorizing almost everyone.
1990-Jewish Rabbi, Meir Kahane assassination in 1990 was the first terrorist attact from Bin Laden

I'm afraid that the persecution of Muslims has been going on since before America even existed.

The argument "They started it" still doesn't work, (even if we ignore hundreds of years of history)  because we retaliated (for 9/11) against a country that was not involved in 9/11
Why did we not attack Saudi Arabia?


Now all we need to cover is religion and we can all go home.  ;)

"I doubt very many Americans know the date of the attacks on London's public transport system in the way we all know the ghastly mess and tragedy of 9/11"

To be fair, they are hardly the same thing. Not in practical terms.  I'm not even sure they are the same motive wise. I don't beleive that there are "Al-Qaeda" cells around the world. I think that 7/7 was about some pissed off young muslims that wanted some glory.

I should also add that when 7/7 happened, quite a few mericans on the supporter board checked to see if I was ok. (I used to work in London)
(Maybe they were hoping I hadn't made it.  ;) )

sheer

[kerriew]

Sheer,

"I'm afraid that the persecution of Muslims has been going on since before America even existed."

Yeah you're right. Every religion experienced some form of persecutions. Too many wars were started for religious reasons. I am so glad I'm not religious

"because we retaliated (for 9/11) against a country that was not involved in 9/11 Why did we not attack Saudi Arabia?"

Are you talking about Iraq? If so this didn't make sense to me either. Except someone had to do something about Saddam before he committed another act of genocide. Still I think he could have been taken down without starting a war on an entire country. I am guessing we attacked Afghanistan because they attacked us and destroyed infrastructures on American soil. But then again, it wasn't the entire country who was involved. So who knows ???

Peace
Kerrie

[Miranda]

Hi Kerrie,

First off can I say how nice it is to have a calm dialogue in a pleasant way where learning can take place!

OK you are not an ‘average American’’ LoL.  Also in no way was our London Transport blitz nearly so iconic as the World Trade Centre – Sheer is also so right on that one.

9/11 is seared into the consciousness of an entire generation and will join those other events that one knows exactly where one was and what one was doing as one heard the news.

I tend to think that most probably “Al Queda” is now a headless monster with a franchise-like network  of off-shoots among those communities who chose to follow suit.  And, as Sheer says, some are just pissed off young Muslims wanting to make a mark.  I do not feel that killing off Bin Laden is going to solve much and it might just end up making even more of a martyr of him.  However, the battle to make the North West Frontier region no longer an option for fundamentalists to hide away, is critical – as it is to stop their ability to train in that inhospitable region.

It is shame that the world was not in more harmony when the genocide of the Kurds took place.  I agree I did not think Sadam to be a ‘reasonable’ man.  But maybe we are slowly learning and it is interesting to see events unfolding in the Balkans! I just hope that Karadzic is moved to The Hague soon.

 We were all so full of hope after the last World War but the Cold War rather kyboshed that.  Then Vietnam and Korea followed more.  Greedy countries make for a politically unstable planet.  We still have not learnt and even now are calmly excepting the right of Russia and China to exercise the veto on economic sanctions on Zimbabwe whilst China is also arming the corrupt leadership of Darfur in the Sudan.  And still we go to Beijing for the games.  Politically, I feel, that this is a tacit acceptance of China’s position, which I am very uncomfortable with. At the very least it will save a few dogs!

One has to remember, hard though it is, that Mandela was considered a ‘terrorist’ by some way back!

I, too, take more note of aberrations of behaviour.  Sheer is too young, but I well remember the days of having a ‘tidy’ handbag when the IRA were targeting London and one was searched at tube stations and department store entrances.  Back then one was calling 999 without a second thought if one saw something suspicious like an unattended shopping bag that might have concealed a bomb!

I have a horrible feeling that we shall all have to be keeping our guards up for terror activity for the rest of our lives.  If it reduces the likelihood of wars then maybe it is a price that has to be paid.  But if we do go to war over issues like this I just hope to god we ‘attack’ the right government.  But for as long as big conglomerates and corporations, in all reality, rule the world, we are at their mercy.  The emerging world is using an oil standard rather than a gold standard as the bench mark.  Again, very scary!

As to a non medical person administrating the lethal injection in the presence of a Doctor and a nurse?  Distasteful.  I would not want to be treated by either if they can stand mute in the presence of a barbaric act!  They effectively condone it.  But doctors do exist who have no moral conscience – Karadzic to name but one!

Thank you for the heads up on content of History curriculum in American schools.

Miranda

Ps  The price of petrol at the pumps is being reduced at some stations here.  Is it happening in America yet?

PPs  Afghanistan did not attack you but the hub of Bin Laden’s terror network was hiding out in that rather lawless part of the world.  I rather think that we will be there for at least another generation, as horrifying as that is to accept.

[Farm]

Whether you call the reason "self defense" or "vengence," the bottom line is you would not kill the person unless they deserved it.

No, Dog... the bottom line here is that you're an idiot.

If a woman is being raped, she has the right to kill her assailant.

She does NOT retain that right after the rape.

One is defense, one is vengance.