For Miranda: Damien and the Great Dane

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[Miranda]

I do apologize to you also Miranda.  I thought that I had 'copy and pasted' for you exactly where that was inserted into Callahans,

Not at all.  You did indeed do a cut and paste from Cally’s and insert that in your post here!  What was missing was the citation and provenance.

An active link straight to the source of the extract is invaluable and adds psychological ‘weight’ to an argument.  As indeed you have given the URL below – thank you.

Being that he too is here in Arkansas, I am sure that he will fit into the profile of '"Lad" from a "Dysfunctional background"

I must admit that I had not really got a solid understanding of the expression ‘trailer trash’   I have a better idea now.  Just as Americans would have no real understanding of British ‘prefab’ areas in the post war era and indeed what council estates are.  We learn things of each others cultures as we read, see films and meet people.  One of the great by-products of the net!

Obviously I am not going to say that all council estate people are thick – that would be stereo typing to a ridiculous degree.  However I would say that there used to be a time when the proportion of Oxbridge graduates from council estates was very low and, currently, just as ASBO’s are in greater density on large inner city council estates.  A matter of prevalence.
 

These two statements Hodge and Bartoush gave about the Great Dane have really nothing to do with DE being a posturing, braggart though, as Bartoush actually 'saw' him do it and Hodge 'heard' from another child named Adam, so it wasn't from a bragging DE that this even came from.

I think you misunderstand me.  I did say that I think DE was a braggart.I did NOT say that he had bragged about this specific incident.  If he did, I was unaware of it, so please tell me where?

I reserve the right to be a bit uncertain as to total veracity of the statement of young Bartoush.  You, obviously, have total confidence in his recall.  I can live with that.  Hodge’s recounting of events is hearsay.  I have no memory of Bartoush being called as a witness – I look forward to being corrected on that one!

 
I had to sit here for a few minutes and try to digest  a teen bragging about doing such a ghastly thing to a defenseless animal.  The next few lines will just be personal thoughts of mine, so skip over if desired.........
I have a teen myself.  He is 14.  I guess I am one of the 'cool' moms, as he and his buddies are always here.  I have been very active in his life, and not now, not last year, nor five years ago, not never..........have I ever, ever, ever even detected a time where he or any of his buddies were lacking in empathy for animals or bugs, or critters of the such.  I guess what I am saying is that, well thats not normal Miranda.  You do know that, don't you?  It has been a very long time since I myself have been a teen, and although I cannot recall all moments of it, I do know for certain that I have never, ever had a second in my own life where I would have been capable of carrying out such a heinous act.  I'm not going to babble on with this paragraph any longer, just wondering over here if you are failing to see how horrible it is?  I cannot help but remember you commenting about me being 'scary' because I give you the impression that I label and hate all supporters.  I assure you that I would not bash any one of you in the head, nor stomp you, and remove your intestines.  I might snarl, or curse, but I am good at keeping my hands to myself and not even having mental thoughts of such physical abuse.

Firstly I could never ever condone any sort of cruelty. Be it physical to humans or animals or indeed, mental and even in words on an internet board.  People tend to be very polarized on this case and some resort to saying very hateful and derogatory things.  I do not like that so try to keep away when things get personal and nasty.  I do not recall ever hurling abusive posts at any one with out any context or substance except that they were nons.  Doubtless, now someone will find something where they think I did!

How you can conceive of me condoning DE allegedly ‘stomping’ a dog to death when I found even the title of this thread discomforting, is beyond me.

Way back small boys collected butterflies.  That involved capturing and pinning to display boards under glass.  I hated that.  I do not think it follows that all butterfly collectors developed into adult psychopaths.  Ok this example is extreme but you get my point?

Furthermore, if brutalizing dogs was alien to that sort of socio-economic area then how come no one reported a missing Great Dane?  Were there more cases of dogs killed?  Was the sanitation department called to remove the remains?

I am sure that were your kids to have come home having seen something like that, not only would they have been upset but I am even sure that you, as their mother and animal lover, would have gone to see and then called the necessary authorities.

A kid has total recall, some time later, to the extent of even knowing the exact date because he bunked off school that day.  I would like to know his attendance record to verify that bunking off was so rare for him as to be memorable and also, if possible, verification from his parents that he was upset on that day. Were he not to have been upset enough for them to realise then it is possible that either it was not too big a departure from what was the norm for him, or it never happened, or he could not admit to bunking of at the time as that was something he tried to get away with on occasion!

All I am saying is that I am not convinced it happened as recounted whilst you are.

You and I are just two completely different people, from different walks of life, different parts of the world.  We will never see things alike, even if we agreed on this case, we still would see everything else from different colored or coloured glasses or specs.  I am glad, as I am sure that you are too.

Yes.  If we were all alike it would be a boring world indeed.  But hell, we both like Hendrix’ music.  I am sure we could, if we tried, find more common ground.
Was it you who now has been turned on to Kid Rock to the amusement of your kids?  I heard some tracks on an internet radio station only last night and loved it! Now want CD!

More rambling here, everyone else warned to skip over.  I would send Miranda a pm, however I am sure she would not read it.

Not only do I read pm’s but I also answer them.  Gee I have already said that I even read this thread despite being put off with the subject line. LoL

You asked me a question, I believe twice now about if I think that you are educated and stupid, views are stupid, or just plain stupid.  You seem to be very fascinated with the fact that you have given me the impression that you are educated.  I will give you that, as I do.  I will tell you that I am too.  Your education and mine are completely different, obviously.  Yours is in journalism?  Is that correct?  Mine is in healthcare.  Two completely different things.  Where you would not be very effective talking slang, with a heavy southern accent..............I wouldn't be very effective, well liked, or even understood with patients, my coworkers, my TEENAGER, or others 'round here if I talked or worded myself like you.  We are just different beasts. Period.  We both must accept that.

I was intrigued at the implicit contradiction in your comment on my ‘stupidity’ bracketed with ‘education’ whilst also confused as to whether you were impugning my intelligence or my opinions on this case.  No more than that.

For the record, our standard education continues to 18 and only for some is the last two years dedicated to work place skills and training.  In academic terms I went ‘back to school’ as a mature student and after that became a teacher of Mathematics (12 to 17 yr olds).  Just as I imagine that you went to college and had your medical training in a teaching hospital.

In many ways things might be easier these days if America had not adopted English as it’s native language!  I am sure we would tend to have far more patience with each other were it obvious that one of us was posting in a language not their own.  As it is there are many difference between English English and American English as well as the minor matter of coming from a different perspective with very different frames of reference.  This is becoming ever more apparent with the increased cross boundary friendships thanks to the internet.  Maybe we can all broaden our horizons.  I am learning a great deal.

You seem to have started in on me long ago, because of this difference.  Like I am possibly a 'lass from a dysfunctional family', and therefore do not deserve to be counted.  I am from the U.S.  I am  from Arkansas, which I am sure is 'yuck to you.  I am not a very good journalist.  I came from an education system that you don't agree with.  My children do and my childrens children will too.  Yucky huh? 

LoL  you are stereo typing your perception of my stereo typing!  If all the residents of AR like that then so is my cousin!  She and her family have lived near Little Rock for many decades now!

It is not my place to agree or disagree with an educational system.  There are good points about the American system, as there are in ours.  There are also flaws in both.  I am talking here about what we call ‘state education’ and you call ‘public schools’.  Public schools here are something totally different!

There are many different types of ‘journalism’.  I had not realised you had been one.  There have been times when I rather wished that I might have come up via the small local paper – that route makes for a good learning curve!

I don't like that you have stereotyped me and everyone else around here as you have.  One of the first posts of yours that I noticed that did not set well with me, however I kept my mouth shut, was you degrading the WM police department.  You went on and on about police officers and how...........corrupt and  bad, they are.  You were on blaming them for poor D,J, and J being found guilty.   We could disagree on this forever, however I just started noticing how much of a biggot you were, stereotyping anyone that is not just like you and seemingly making them even less of a person because of this difference.  I sometimes wonder, this is terrible, but I do wonder..............the real victims of this case, do you feel that they deserved less of a life, because of their location, education, and all of the other things that seem to make you look down upon people over here? 
I am married to a police officer and it doesn't work the way that you have the impression of, I assure you.   There are bad ones, sure.  Very bad.  But for an entire police department, and legal system  to do what you suggest over a case that involves three murdered children, and the possiblility of letting the real killers remain in society, while sending three innocent teens to prison and or death..........that just doesn't happen Miranda, not even over here.  Your suggestions of that were sickening to me.  Todd even tried to tell you what a wonderful man, and person Gitchell was, that he knows him well.  They are friends.  I do not know him at all, but what kind of person/friend would participate in such corruption over the death of a child?  I do know alot of the folks here that participated in the trials...........and IMO, I know they had a job to do, but I cannot and will never be convinced that they would allow or participate in such corruption.  The accusation of that is ridiculous. 
The three that you support........they are killers, and they are liars.  They killed the children and they do not deserve to be defended, given wealth,  made martyrs or  celebrities. 
Why do you attack everything right about this case, and choose to believe only in one person?  I'm sorry, but I do not understand. 
Sorry for the rambling, but I do feel better now that I got that off of my chest.

I am sorry if you inferred that I had implied that all residents of Arkansas were of the poor white trailer park background.  I did not intend to convey that at all and know perfectly well that it is not the case!

I think Mr Moore was in fact defending Bryn Ridge.  No matter.  I am sure that most of your police are above reproach.  As are ours.  When talking about the police I should have said that I meant those serving at the time and involved directly with this case.  Also I do not think that all of them were ‘corrupt’ per se.  I did, however, express my unhappiness over the testimony of one.  As to your accusation of bigotry, I am saddened that you think that but it is your right.  If I had to condemn one ‘type’ as ‘sub human’ I think I would go with paedophiles; guys who molest / rape young women and those who are guilty of spousal abuse.  In my opinion no man ever should raise a hand to a women.  Please note that sentence before says spousal abuse rather than merely husband to wife!  Are your incarcerated disenfranchised for the duration?

I am only a supporter in so far as I think that there should be another trial but I can accept that that is unlikely.  I am not one of those who shriek ‘innocent’ from the roof tops and want them immediately released.

We are never going to agree on the matter of this case.  It is obvious that nons concur totally with the way the investigations went and the evidence collected along with the trials and the outcomes.  Completely understandable.  However I reserve the right to holding an opinion based on my perception of the exact same evidence etc  along with the need to question some of it.   There is no way that e are ever going to resolve these two disparate views, so shall we both just agree that on these matters we are unlikely to ever reach agreement?



I am afraid that I cannot recall our first ‘run in’.  It is in the past and I am sure not worthy of revisiting, especially now!

Miranda

With apologies to others for the length.  I felt that TJM's post warranted it.

[Farm]

Of course Supporters know the "Great dane" incident is significant.

If they didn't - they wouldn't have such an incredibly hard time admitting that it took place.

[Kimbo]

Some reading for you Alex...

http://ddl.uwinnipeg.ca/viol_cr/files/readings/reading11.pdf

The case study samples are small but startling.

Ressler et al. (1988) completed ... a study on various behavioral
characteristics of 36 sexual murderers, with all but 7 being serial murderers.
The study encompassed the largest number of serial murderers researched to date.
The focus of the study was to provide detailed qualitative characteristics
as well as to test specific quantitative variables of the men in the sample.
Of the 36 men, 28 were tested for certain childhood characteristics in conjunction
with the available data. The authors discovered that a substantial number
of the 28 convicted serial murderers in the study had engaged in animal cruelty.Of
the offenders, 36% had perpetrated animal cruelty as children, 46% were cruel to
animals as adolescents, and 36% continued their abusive nature toward animals as
adults..

Please quantify how Echol's documented animal abuse is not significant.

Kimbo

[chitown_alex]

I will quantify how it isn't significant once you analyze the study in conjunction with Damien's history.  Merely pasting a study verbatim and inferring a causal connection is not enough.

I'll go ahead and say it anyway.  It's clear that many murderers torture animals either during their childhood or even adulthood.  However, your study in no way proves that a substantial percentage of murderers have done so.  Assuming arguendo that both Jason and Jessie are guilty, did they have a history or animal cruelty as well?  Furthermore, what about children who torture animals yet don't commit murders later in life? 

Damien torturing an animal goes to his character in court.  However, nobody has established a causal connection between the animal torture and the murders.  Were the torture and murders conducted in a similar fashion?  Any similar patterns of injury?

[taylorjaysmommy]

Alex,
I mainly posted this to hammer down on his character.  Because I do believe that he was capable and that he definately did it.   I also thought about sitting and counting to see how long it would take you, and Miranda to try to discredit an eyewitness to this account. 
It absolutely amazes me that you two do not want to believe anything, or anybody except the killers or defense.  They are the only ones telling the truth here in your eyes. 

This is kind of a morbid question, but here goes anyway:
Do you believe that anyone that could do such an act of intentional, monstrous,  violence on a defenseless animal, there in West Memphis, could possibly be the one that tortured and killed the children there in West Memphis also?  Or do you think that there are just all kinds of persons walking around in one city that could and would do that? 
Sorry for being yucky, but I am just wondering if I am that naive, as I do not think that you would find a character such as that around every corner. 

TJM

[LaCosaNostra44]

I will quantify how it isn't significant once you analyze the study in conjunction with Damien's history.  Merely pasting a study verbatim and inferring a causal connection is not enough.

I'll go ahead and say it anyway.  It's clear that many murderers torture animals either during their childhood or even adulthood.  However, your study in no way proves that a substantial percentage of murderers have done so.  Assuming arguendo that both Jason and Jessie are guilty, did they have a history or animal cruelty as well?  Furthermore, what about children who torture animals yet don't commit murders later in life? 

Damien torturing an animal goes to his character in court.  However, nobody has established a causal connection between the animal torture and the murders.  Were the torture and murders conducted in a similar fashion?  Any similar patterns of injury?

Alex for the last time...you are the one asking for causal relationships which is just silly. It does not negate Kimbo's or my points.

How can killing  or torturing an animal cause someone to kill a human? It doesn't. But lack of empathy for another living breathing creature that can display when it is in pain is a sign of sociopathy.

The legal standard does not require it to be causal. Your need for it to be is yours only.

Oh... and...here's somethings for you to ponder.

The FBI has found that a history of cruelty to animals is one of the traits that regularly appear in its computer records of serial rapists and murderers. It has recognized this link since the 1970s.

 Arluke, Levin, &  Luke  examined the records of the MAASPCA for the years 1975 to 1996. They identified 153 men who had been prosecuted for animal cruelty and compared their criminal records to a group of "next door neighbors" — men who were similar in age, ethnic background, neighborhood, and economic status. Their findings were convincing: men who abused animals were five times more likely to have been arrested for violence against humans, four times more likely to have committed property crimes, and three times more likely to have records for drug and disorderly conduct offenses.

Kelert anfd Felthouse  explored the childhood of individuals who were incarcerated or committed to psychiatric hospitals for criminal offenses. They stated that there was a significant association between acts of cruelty to animals in childhood and serious, recurrent aggression against people as an adult. As further corroboration, in one study these researchers determined that the most aggressive criminals had committed the most severe acts of animal cruelty in childhood.

Being cruel to animals as a child is a hallmark of Conduct Disorder (which Damien was diagnosed with).  Substantial proportions of children diagnosed with conduct disorder continue to show behaviors in adulthood that meet criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder.

The  school shootings between 1997 and 2001.....Previous to their headline-grabbing gunfire, the boys involved had, variously, boasted about shooting dogs with a .22-caliber rifle, throwing a cat into a bonfire, torturing a dog to death, and blowing up a cow, squirrels, and cats,

Additioanlly, it has been found that there are higher rates of animal cruelty in families with a history of domestic violence.


So...let's see...

Damien had a history of psychiatric problems including a diagnosis of Conduct Disorder. He had a history of family violence. He had a history of being violent towards his family and shoolmates....he had a lack of empathy for others. He tortured the dog to death....by beating it to death...

Poor Michael, Stevie and Chris were beat to death too....

What more do you need?

[Miranda]

Alex,
Because I do believe that he was capable and that he definately did it.   I also thought about sitting and counting to see how long it would take you, and Miranda to try to discredit an eyewitness to this account. 
It absolutely amazes me that you two do not want to believe anything, or anybody except the killers or defense.  They are the only ones telling the truth here in your eyes. 

This is kind of a morbid question, but here goes anyway:
Do you believe that anyone that could do such an act of intentional, monstrous,  violence on a defenseless animal, there in West Memphis, could possibly be the one that tortured and killed the children there in West Memphis also?  Or do you think that there are just all kinds of persons walking around in one city that could and would do that? 
Sorry for being yucky, but I am just wondering if I am that naive, as I do not think that you would find a character such as that around every corner. 

TJM

TJM,

I do not know how many times I have to try to clarify your view of my opinions.  I do know I have to rebutt yoiur statements that, in my view make false representation.

Viz a vie Bartoush' statement - I have commented already.  He was a child, for god's sake so 'discredit' is not the appropriate verb.  Does one have to believe a child just because they are a child?  If so then ergo all children tell truth.  Then it follows that either western kids are not kids or eastern kids are not kids - which is blatantly ridiculous.

Also you are convinced the convictions are both sound and just and that, it follows, they are 'killers'.

I do not thus, in my frame of reference that fact is not fixed and it is possible that they are not.  Of course, it makes the nons argument more forceful to keep referring to them as 'killers' and as they were convicted, that is alright.

It is despicable to think that there are people anywhere capable of such barbarity.  But guess what?  Shit happens!

Just look at the recent case in point about a dog breeder.

There are poeple who post here and on other boards whom I have no problem believing whatsoever and to suggest that I, or any other supporters en masse " . . do not want to believe anything, or anybody except the killers or defense.  They are the only ones telling the truth here in your eyes.  . . ."  Is a vast oversimplification of a very complex situation.

I would concur that there is a tendency among some supporters to lump all nons together as moronic, vengeful bunch who glorify the DP and would rather it far more painful and undignified a process s possible.  Similarly there are some nons who can only cope by lumping all supporters together as a bunch of fawning sycophants of very low intelligence who blindly chant, by rote, that the three should be released.

Neither generalisation gets anywhere near the truth of this very distressing situation.

I need to check as I have not noticed if you have responded on the thread about Griffis which you started.



Percentage possibilities and degrees of probability can illustrate trends and liklihoods but never a complete certainty.  Patterns can emerge which can be shown to be statistically significant.  What we happen to think of as 'significant' is not nearly such a rigorously meaningful statement.

There is a link between the liklihood that docurmented animal torture in the young can be a precursor of possible psychopathic anti-social behaviour  in adult life.  However this does not mean that every case of animal cruelty among the young means that that person will go on to commit many murders.  Were that case I am sure our respective societies would be far more vigilant in policing animal welfare and prosecuting those who are guilty of it.

Hell, if animal welfare were rigorously policed and all guns rendered inoperable then I am sure that the statistics of murder would show a very dramatic down-turn.  As would ours here if all knives were banned!

It is far wiser to hunt for the common middle ground and build on that rather than nail flag to mast and fighting to the death by hurling abuse and damning individuals for the perceived 'extremist' view. That is a generalization not unconnected to the equally questionable 'stereo-typing'.

I am unaware of any rumours that circulated of either Jessie M or Jason B being guilty of animal torture at any point in their young lives.

Out of academic curiosity, how many documented serial killers started their 'careers' in their teens, with witnesses/cohorts who either joined in or not?  For the Great Dane argument to have statistical significance, which in turn would suggest that DE is a psychopath, it is rather strange that this was never hinted at at the trial, is it not?

Miranda

[chitown_alex]

LCN,

Then what is the "legal standard" for it?  I fully understand and am in agreement with you and Kimbo that such a background speaks to one's character and can be influential to a jury.  However, my argument is that the fundamental weakness between such a history and a crime is that no apparent causal connection exists in this case.  Damien's history with animals would be a golden character impeachment had there been substantial evidence linking him to the crime.  Now that you know where I stand, I don't think we have to discuss anything else unless you feel it necessary.

[LaCosaNostra44]

LCN,

Then what is the "legal standard" for it?  I fully understand and am in agreement with you and Kimbo that such a background speaks to one's character and can be influential to a jury.  However, my argument is that the fundamental weakness between such a history and a crime is that no apparent causal connection exists in this case.  Damien's history with animals would be a golden character impeachment had there been substantial evidence linking him to the crime.  Now that you know where I stand, I don't think we have to discuss anything else unless you feel it necessary.

Your failure in logic is that you are want  a causal link.

Define causal for me then...because you and I are not speaking the same language.

In research, the only thing that you can attribute to a causal link is if  Variable A directly affects Result B.

Correlation exists if their is a strong relationship between Variable A and Result B, but where other factors are present.

Killing an animal does not cause one to kill a person.

Having a mental illness does not cause one to kill a person.

Doing drugs or alcohol does not cause one to kill a person.

The only thing that causes kill another person is their actions. If you beat someone in the head long enough, they will die.

[chitown_alex]

You're right.  We aren't speaking the same language.  I'm looking at it from a legal standpoint while you're reading it in an empirical way.  Let's just leave it at that.

[taylorjaysmommy]

It is despicable to think that there are people anywhere capable of such barbarity.  But guess what?  Shit happens!

Ya' know.............what you said right there, suprises me that you finally admitted it.  I bet you wouldn't blow it off as 'shit happens' if it were YOUR dog or YOUR child.

You really suck Miranda.

TJM

[Miranda]

Ya' know.............what you said right there, suprises me that you finally admitted it.  I bet you wouldn't blow it off as 'shit happens' if it were YOUR dog or YOUR child.

You really suck Miranda.

TJM

What I said was:-  "It is despicable to think that there are people anywhere capable of such barbarity.  But guess what?  Shit happens!"

That your interpretation of it was such that you think I am shallow and unfeeling just goes to show a fundamental  lack of ability to 'listen' and think through.  It must mean a very two dimensional existence and a complete disinterest in those who are not cut from the same cloth.  The fact that you have to end by being childishly nasty saddens me but, I am starting to realise, seems to be your only way of communicating your total disagreement with anything I might say or think.

So let us cease these personal attacks - and if the only way you can do that is to totally ignore anything I may post and very specifically do not include reference to me in any response you might make to other posts.  It is all getting rather tedious.



To everyone else here:-

Just in case the point was missed.  Animal cruelty is never acceptable.  Nor is spousal abuse.  Nor overly heavy handed corporal punishment. Nor is wrongful imprisonment. Censorship - the list is endless.

Vengeance and schadenfreude are not attractive traits either.

Laslty - there is also a link of the incidence of  juvenile fire setting in quite a sizable proportion of those who were later convicted of murder and considered psychopathic I believe.

Miranda

[taylorjaysmommy]

Did you stomp your feet and throw something with your last post?  I hope so.   
And LASTLY, I think that I will post to you or anyone else that I choose......if thats not ok with ya', then..........oh well.  You can stop answering, in fact, I had rather you do that as post some of the malingering replies that you do. 
And LASTLY again, if you think that I implied that " you are shallow and unfeeling"  yep, I did  and you can just chalk it up to my  fundamental  lack of ability to 'listen' and think through, or that I correlate what I do 'listen' to from you, with the fact that you always have an excuse to overturn in your mind everything damning towards the 'KILLERS' in this case.  I don't want to go back through your posts, as it is not important enough, but in my little mind, I seem to remember you for using the old 1) The corrupt, PO-DUNK 'little backwoods, small town, deep south Police ploy.  2)  It really bothers you that I refer to them as KILLERS, because of some defunct rationalizing in my little hillbilly head........I have a news flash for you...........The STATE deemed them Killers Miranda!  3) You shrug off most of Damiens evil qualities by simply giving him a little 'Dennis the Menace' characteristic.  I believe I have even seen you use the term mischevious to describe him.  In my eyes, he is a different beast Miranda.  He proved that to alot of people, more entitled to diagnose him than you or I, and it was way before he MURDERED the children.  I feel, by reading his mental health history Miranda, more than one, way before the murders, tried to lay it out there that he was definately capable, and inclined to inflict harm upon others.  You do know that 'most' people can go to a counselor to sort through their problems and deal with them, but him being a repeat  'inpatient' actually even says alot for me.  They can't and don't lock the ones up that are not a danger.  What part of that are you not 'listening' to or understanding?   He didn't grow a new head or brain between the time of these diagnoses and the time of the trial, he proved that by his callous, smug, kiss blowing, hair brushing, smiling self while in a fight for his reputation and life during the trial.   
Your warped Miranda.  Very bad.  I don't have to prove anything to you, and I don't feel inadequate because I choose not to look past all of the EVIDENCE against him and the other two MURDERERS, that essentially convicted them.  You can, deny all you want, but  their KILLERS were found, prosecuted and sentenced and there is a price to pay............I guess you can truly say that 'SHIT HAPPENS' now.

Have a lovely day

TJM

[Miranda]

Again, you totally fail to get the point!  I have the utmost respect for the right of people to have their own opinions and to express them.  You very obviously do not.

I even said that I can accept the way you delight in reinforcing the use of the word 'killers' and that it is ok. You are attacking me for respecting both your opinion and your right to hold it?  Too funny.
the cumalitive effect of your obnoxious and rude posts just reinforce those broad brush stereo-typical images representative of a few narrow minded types that can be found in every community everywhere.

It is amusing to see how many times you have to 'use' my name in order to make sure that your effluence reaches the right target.  Suck it up!

Finito.


LoL  First time I have ever used that expression!  And most probably totally inappropriately here but it just 'popped up'!

* Edited to correct a rather critical error!

[taylorjaysmommy]

Miranda,
It's ok.  You just keep your eyes closed, and fingers stuffed in your ears, while chanting 'lalalalala'.  Things will continue to move along with or without your blessing or understanding anyway.   You can digest it all at once then. 

 TJM