Damiens anti depressant can CAUSE delusions....

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[incredulous]

Damien was prescribed a tri-cyclic anti-depressant called Imipramine (also known as Tofranil)  - first a 50Mg dose then a few months later a 100 Mg dose.....then later 150 Mg (2/11/93).... Before the murders he had been on this for over a year.

Increasing the dose is standard practice  no problems with that..... However, the listed side effects of this drug make interesting reading... "Headache, confusion, orthostatic hypotension (resulting in dizziness upon standing), numbness/tingling, agitation, anxiety, restlessness, mood swings, exaggerated behaviour, delusions and hallucinations have been reported occasionally and are more common in the elderly or in patients on high doses. Aggressiveness, weakness, lack of co-ordination, sudden muscle spasms, difficulty speaking have been reported in isolated cases."   

Well that seems to cover a number of behaviours that have been ascribed to Damien..... to what extent was this medication influencing or even causing some of his "bad" behaviour ?  Its hard to say but it is one possible explanation for his behaviour/comments in "Paradise Lost I" that are clearly delusional , such as where he seems to be delighted with the prospect of being the "boogyman"... I think it plays a significant role in why he seemed "wierd" at the trials etc though other factors are also relevant.

As others here have noted, the power of these drugs to effect peoples behaviour should not be underestimated. Even anti-histamine tablets make a lot  of people "cranky" or unusually intolerant - this drug works in much the same fashion as tri-cyclic ADs but doesnt effect as many nuerotransmitters in the brain as do ADs.

It may also be worth noting that Ive seen recomendations that this drug should have its dosage increased in  25 Mg amounts - not 50 Mg as appears to have been the case for Damien.... this would be to reduce the severity of side effects.

The notes above mention symptoms could be worse in elderly people - but what about in 17/18 year olds ?  What do the studies say on this ?  How many studies have been done on the effect on developing brains of this anti-depressant ?

I cant answer this however it is relevant that this class of anti depressants isnt widely used anymore as other newer types of anti-depressants are used instead.... Why is this ?  Because the newer ones have less side effects !!!!!!  They have less negative effects on peoples behaviour.

Finally, one of the psych doctors states that Damien said he felt no side effects from the medication, however someone who is delusional is hardly in a reliable position to self assess themselves. Or maybe the delusional behaviour surfaced later on....

Regardless of whether you believe the above arguement or not , I dont think he had the right mindset or motivation to commit this brutal murder. He may have been depressed, he may even have had bipolar (manic depression), he may have been interested in witchcaft , he may have acted wierd - so what. That doesnt motivate you to brutally kill 3 boys and I dont believe there was sufficient evidence to assume it was satan worship either.

So what do y'all think ?

[Icky Twerp]

Honestly? That you should look at the psych records and evaluations a little closer as Damien didn't just have some naughty behavior but some outright episodes of serious proportions. I still draw parallels to Damien's behavior as similar in mindset to Roderick Ferrell's in that they both shared similar warning signs but people say I'm comparing apples to oranges on that one for some reason.

[drexl]

To put the blame on the meds is rediculous for the fact that neither Jason nor Jessie were on either types of anti-depressants.

All three are sick fucks who decided to flex their big bad muscles on three innocent 8-year old boys.

Well after that,some big bad dudes were flexing their muscles telling them to spead asses.So Damien was right when he said that the wicca religion preaches "any evil you send out comes back to you threefold". Karmas a bitch.

[Farm]

Damien was prescribed a tri-cyclic anti-depressant called Imipramine (also known as Tofranil)  - first a 50Mg dose then a few months later a 100 Mg dose.....then later 150 Mg (2/11/93).... Before the murders he had been on this for over a year.

Yes.

however it is relevant that this class of anti depressants isnt widely used anymore as other newer types of anti-depressants are used instead.... Why is this ?

Because Damien's diagnosis was dystemia with a psychotic disorder NOS.

And well......

In the current study we focus on the treatment response to imipramine in a group of patients with psychotic depression and compare this to patients who manifest no psychotic features. Our aim in presenting these findings was to contribute to the discussion on the optimal treatment of psychotic depressed patients. Methods: Fifty-two patients with a unipolar major depression (DSM-IIIR), comprising 15 patients with mood-congruent psychotic features and 37 patients with no psychotic features, were commenced on treatment with imipramine after a drug-free and placebo-washout period of 7 days. The dose of imipramine was adjusted for all patients to a predetermined blood level. The Hamilton (HRSD) and Montgomery–Asberg (MADRS) Depression Rating Scales were used to evaluate treatment response. Results: Of the 45 patients who completed the study, nine of the 13 psychotic patients (69.2%) and 14 of the 32 non-psychotic patients (43.8%) responded to treatment. The patients with psychotic features demonstrated a lower mean final HRSD score, together with a greater fall in MADRS score over time, compared to the non-psychotic group. Both these findings remained statistically significant after controlling for a number of possible confounding factors. Conclusions: These results demonstrate that, in this group of patients with mood-congruent psychotic depression, imipramine used on its own together with strict control of serum drug levels produced a high treatment response rate of 70%. Clinical implications: If replicated, these findings suggest that imipramine with control of blood levels of medication may be a useful first-line treatment for depressed patients with mood-congruent psychotic features.

[kerriew]

"The notes above mention symptoms could be worse in elderly people - but what about in 17/18 year olds ?  What do the studies say on this ?  How many studies have been done on the effect on developing brains of this anti-depressant ?"

The normal dose for this age is not to exceed 300mg per day and the most severe side effect for this age would be increased suicidal ideations. Only because when someone starts an antideppressant they have more energy to carry out the suicide. The delusions and hallucintions are a very rare side effect and is usually caused by seretonin syndrome.
The newer antideppressants are only used more now because their overdose potential is less severe than the TCA not because they have less side effects. The side effects are somewhat the same except for Wellbutrin which is more dangerous than the others because more than 300mg a day will cause seizures. All antidepressants have the potential to cause seretonin syndrome. The risks are higher in the elderly. They are also used for psychosis and bed wetting in children.
IMO, someone in an active psychotic episode is more likely to committ a violent act because they are out of touch with reality.

[incredulous]

Hey Icky, I agree he is reported to have had some majorly unusual episodes...they are a worry. Indeed not far at all from the Rodderick's....but not all people that have psychotic episodes actually commit murder. I wasnt trying to put all the blame on anti-depressants I just thought it was an interesting and relevant list of side effects given some of his reported behaviours - especially the delusional stuff.

Indeed as "Farm" has somewhat convincingly noted, maybe that drug was helping him be less psychotic than he may otherwise have been... the study he pointed to seems to suggest its quite effective and may still be used for people that have psychotic leanings.... nice research there "Farm" !! There is still a place for tri-cyclic ADs after all !

Although I cant help feeling the psych's may have been a little melodramatic as they reckon he was "abusing drugs"....  he may have been using them but if he was as poor as claimed he couldnt afford any serious abuse. Then again its hard not to sound meldramtic if somoeone is actually licking blood off someelse saying "..etc etc ...."  as has been claimed.

Mr Mselder im sorry but your argument was way too circular for me to touch.

KerrieW - that was some interesting stuff.... if you need them then fine but I cant help feeling that AD's can be potentially dangerous.... but no treatment can also be dangerous so.....


Thanks for your input....

[Farm]

maybe that drug was helping him be less psychotic than he may otherwise have been

I don't know how effective it was, but one needs to note that Echols had complained of aural/visual hallucinations since childhood, so there's certainly no reason to believe his psychosis was a result of his treatment.

[incredulous]

Hey Farm,
I agree he had significant issues before taking the medication.... I was more speculating as to whether it is possible the medication had some additional negative effects on his pre-exisintg condition.

But from what has been put forward here , any negative effects would seem to be likely to be short lived rather than ongoing - and that inded the medication may have been helpful.

[Farm]

Well, as for the effectiveness of the AD, it's hard to say.

Echol's condition clearly seemed to deteriorate whenever he was released from care, but then he complained about the side effects, so there's a good possibility he wasn't taking them after release.

One of the major tragedies of this case is Pam's constant interference with Echol's treatment, and she should in my eyes be held partially accountable for any of his actions.

[kerriew]

I agree he had significant issues before taking the medication.... I was more speculating as to whether it is possible the medication had some additional negative effects on his pre-exisintg condition.

I don't think so. Damien's delusions and hallucintions were not caused by the AD's because the dose was way to low to produce the seretonin syndrome. IMO, he should have been given an antipsycotic also to sedate the halllucinations and delusions. I also agree with Farm, his mother should have been consistant with the treatment. No one even gave the meds the chance to reach therapuetic levels.

[Farm]

The most blatant example is Pam's refusal of care in Oregon.

One of the stipulations of Echol's second release from Charter was that he follow up his care in Oregon, yet when those state officials went to the home, Pam refused any treatment, leaving them with no legal recourse.

And as we know, Echols was once again institutionalized days later in St. Vincent - with his parents refusing to allow him to return to the home out of fear for the safety of his siblings.

Being that he had twice previously been institutionalized for violent abberant behavior, Pam's blatent neglect of her son's condition was completely indefensible.

[taylorjaysmommy]

He had problems hence why he was prescribed the medications to begin with.

They either didn't work, or perhaps even made his issues worse.  I am not thoroughly convinced that he even took them as instructed.  I know that most every drug on the planet specifically states to not take them with alcohol or other drugs, as they have the ability to cause adverse effects.  I think it would be safe to say that he pushed the envelope on that.  Who knows?   

Are you suggesting that he had an acceptable license to kill either way? 

Just wondering.


P.S.  I absolutely loooooooooooove when this particular subject gets brought up by supporters or fence sitters.  In my opinion the entire killing frenzy was attributed to this very subject. 
This is my favorite subject  of  all.  I love to read Farm, Sheer, Rudder and the others posts on this topic.  If you will notice,  about everything that he posts will be Damien 'scriptures' and not just opinion.   Good stuff !   

Ya'll, please don't let this thread die !!   

[taylorjaysmommy]

Well, as for the effectiveness of the AD, it's hard to say.

Echol's condition clearly seemed to deteriorate whenever he was released from care, but then he complained about the side effects, so there's a good possibility he wasn't taking them after release.

One of the major tragedies of this case is Pam's constant interference with Echol's treatment, and she should in my eyes be held partially accountable for any of his actions.

Instead of being now locked away for 16 years................it should have been AT LEAST  17.  The children would still be alive.  She most definately should have been held accountable and responsible for him. 

His mental status, his family, and especially his mothers lack of concern for society...............these are the keys to why what happened, happened. 

Satanic worship.............wearing black................Metallica.....................bah !!  None of that is truly an interest or contributor to the question of why he did what he did.  It all lies in his obvious mental health years before this all happened. 

How can anyone actually read into his mental records and not know that, and deny it?

Oh, how I love this thread !!

[Mary7875]

 
 to what extent was this medication influencing or even causing some of his "bad" behaviour ? 

Not too much, apparently.

Dr. Woods described in great detail Damien's visual and auditory hallucinations dating to childhood...long before he was on medication. 

[taylorjaysmommy]

I'm sorry upfront here new person, but I am mean and plus have been diagnosed by one of your obvious cult buddies as being passive/aggressive, so here goes............................. how in the hell can you obviously read some of the 500 and come up with the smack that you have?  Do you have comprehension problems or set backs??  I think that if you are going to post here, we are entitled to at least know that up front,  as to know how to handle your posts.   I'm sorry, but that is the stupidest shit that I have seen in awhile.   Did you read ALL of it?  Did you read it and pretend that it was a fantasy, all the while probably reading Devil's Knot as the gospel?  WTF is wrong with you?  I mean at least you are in an area reading that is so very very important to this case............I am kind of used to folks that would not even know what was being talked about  as far as his mental records, or the first place to go to look to find it..........but you actually read it and STILL make excuses for him?

Would you accept an excuse of not taking your meds, not taking them correctly,  taking them with other illegal drugs or alcohol, or taking them and having even weirder thoughts than when you were prescribed them in the first place, but not doing much of anything about it as being an acceptable excuse for them killing YOUR child???    Hell NO you wouldn't.   You would be mad as hell and would have your heart ripped out of your body for some jack off to sit in front of you and make excuses like you have here.    Your all of the law enforcement and prosecution team and prosecution witness's are liars and the only person that told the truth is Damien is showing here and I do NOT like it.