Damiens anti depressant can CAUSE delusions....

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Latest Member: wiltar

[Sherry]

I dont think he had the right mindset or motivation to commit this brutal murder. So what do y'all think ?

5/7/92.  E. Arkansas Mental Health Center:  Client admits to having been suspended seven times this past semester for initiating fights at school and starting fires.  States in one fight he almost gouged out the victim’s eyes.

Clinical report based on psychological tests:  The behavior of this youngster is characterized by impulsive hostility...the desire to gain power and demean others springs from animosity and a wish to vindicate past grievances.  This teenager believes that past degradations may be undone by provoking fear and intimidation in others.  Cool and distant, this youth demonstrates little or no compassion for others. 

6/1/92 - 6/25/92.  Committed to Charter Hospital of Little Rock:  Admits to a history of violence and attempting to scratch out the eyes of a classmate.  There were major concerns that Damien was exhibiting disturbed thinking.  He has a history of extreme physical aggression toward others.  It was felt that he needed to be temporarily removed from his environment to provide protection for him and protection for others. 

9/2/92 - 9/4/92.  Committed to St. Vincent’s Hospital in Oregon:  Suicidal, threatening family, drug use.  Parental concerns regarding satanism, devil worship.  

Emergency Room report:  The patient denies suicidal or homicidal ideation at this time.  However, in talking with the family members, they state that he made it quite clear that he had thought of harming other people, i.e. was going to cut the throat of his mother and has said so in the past, and also made verbal threats to his father here at St. Vincent’s Hospital.

Admission Diagnosis:  Suicidal/homicidal ideation.
Physician’s Progress Report:  Because of Damien’s threats, both parents do not feel that they wish to have him return to their home.  They are frightened of him and what he can do, not only to them but to the other children who reside in the home (2 others).  Damien is to return to Arkansas by bus.


9/14/92 - 9/28/92.  Readmitted to Charter Hospital:  Damien reportedly threatened to kill and eat his father while in Oregon.  He admitted to sucking the blood out of a peer’s neck.

9/92 Progress notes:  Belief in devil worship, has agreed to threatening to “kill” others.  Bizarre behaviors.  Stated he had attempted suicide before and “wasn’t worried about trying again, because I know I can come back.”


Damien continuing to make bizarre sounds around peers, but where staff can’t hear him.  Continues talk of satanism.

Diagnosis:  Psychotic Disorder.

1/5/93.  Mental Health Center reopens case:  Reports self-mutilation, cutting self with knives.  Will “trance out” since 5th grade - doesn’t have to deal with what’s going on.  Says he thinks a lot about life after death--”I want to go where the monsters go.”  He admits being caught with satanic items, but denies cult involvement.

Is interested in witchcraft for the past 8 years.  He has tried to steal energy from someone else and influence others’ mind with witchcraft.  Describes self as “pretty much hates the human race.”  Relates that he feels people are in two classes--sheep and wolves (wolves eat the sheep).

1/20/93:  Damien is an 18 year old, recently discharged from Charter Hospital.  He’s had three psychiatric hospitalizations.  Each has been associated with anger, thoughts of killing others, and thoughts of killing himself.

1/25/93:  Speaks of rituals, drinking blood, more involved in demonology.  Damien explained that he obtains his power by drinking blood of others.  He typically drinks the blood of a sexual partner or of a ruling partner.  This is achieved by biting or cutting.  He states, “It makes me feel like a god.”


Damien describes drinking blood as giving him more power and strength.  He remembers doing this as far back as age 10.  He wants very much to be all powerful.  He wants very much to be in total control. 

Damien relates that a spirit is now living with him.  The spirit was put inside him last year.  He indicates that a month ago, the spirit decided to become part of him and he to become part of the spirit.  This is reportedly a spirit of a woman who was killed by her husband.  In addition, he also reports conversations with demons and other spirits.  This is achieved through rituals. 

5/5/93:  At times he is impulsive and does things that may be harmful to him.  He has impulses to do strange and harmful things.
5/5/93:  Christopher Byers, Steve Branch, and Michael Moore are murdered.         
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This was something that I think Mary put together some time ago.....
   
When I read thru this, I can't understand how anyone could say he wasn't in the "right" mindset to have committed the murders.

[incredulous]

Hey all, the responses have been interesting.....  some enlightening such as Farms mention of the Rodderick case.... & the potential benefits of the antidepressant (when correctly used)....

MJ , if you are especially close to the victims Im sorry if some of my post annoyed you.... I would not knowingly disrespect that position. If I knew that to be the case I would keep my mouth shut. However as I dont know that to be the case and since you refered to my underlying position on this case, I will clarify my position....  Its not that I think all the witneses and the police are liars.... I just dont think the trials were run fairly or that any of the cases were strong enough legally to convict. However I dont have a fixed position at this time as to their actual guilt.....  You guys here have mounted a strong case that Damien may have had the state of mind to committ murder (like Rodderick), however I remain unconvinced for various reasons. I just cant see Jason Baldwin being violent enough to be a main player in this and I doubt someone would keep a secret for Damien at the time or all these years later when he could plea bargain his sentence down. Friend or no friend.

Again, Im not looking to upset anyone by stating this ,  just clarifying my position since it was raised and also someone here may raise points that force me to reconsider my views. Im open to that. Originally I was just trying to see what people thought in regards to the effects of the anti-depressant and Im glad I asked as useful points were raised. In closing , i certainly dont view "Devil's Knot" as any sort of gospel as to what really happened.

Thanks for your posts.

[Rudder]

I just cant see Jason Baldwin being violent enough to be a main player in this

Why is this? Everyone who described the murders claimed that Baldwin was the sicko doing the most heinous damage. Why would they claim the sissiest looking one of the three to do the most violent, sickest acts if it weren't true? Surely if "they was just lying on them boys", they would have said Echols castrated Christopher, or that Echols put the balls in his mouth and drank blood from the severed penis, right? But no, that's not the case. All the sick crap has been attributed to Baldwin by numerous people.
You don't think Baldwin could be this violent because he looked like a little girl? I just watched the Alex and Derek King case on Dateline last night, 12 and 13 y/o brothers who beat their father to death with a baseball bat. Take a look at these two monsters and tell me if they look capable of murder:


No? Yeah, they had a lot of supporters too, saying those sweet little boys just couldn't have done it. Until they confessed, made a plea bargain, and freely admit their crime now. You should change your screen name to "IncredulouslyNaive".

[Sherry]

That's exactly what I was thinking Rudder!  I can think of so many murderers and the horrendous crimes they've committed.....and I would've never guessed that they were capable of such crimes because of the way that they looked. 

I just cant see Jason Baldwin being violent enough to be a main player in this .....that is a ridiculous statement.

[incredulous]

Hey,
just to clarify ,  I said:  "I just cant see Jason Baldwin being violent enough to be a main player in this"...... I didnt say that I dont think he LOOKS like he could be violent. I was basing this on several things :   his appearance , his general demeaner, his size/weight , his upbringing   (i dont recall claims of him being abused or brutalised as a youth)..., his looking after his brothers, etc.  Generally (but not always) people committing violent acts have been exposed to some form of abuse or violence or otherwise have underlying mental issues.

Rudder: "Everyone who described the murders claimed that Baldwin was the sicko doing the most heinous damage."
What by everyone you mean Jesse Misskelley in his so called confession??. If that was a reliable confession he would have appeared in the Echols/Baldwin trial as a witness and could have reduced his own sentence. But he didnt and his confession was not tendered in evidence in that case. No-one else claimed to be a witness . There is no everyone.

[Sherry]

No-one else claimed to be a witness.  There is no everyone

Michael Carson's testimony:

A: Me and Jason Baldwin were scraping up the cards to go into our cells for lunch because they make us go into our cells for lunch. We was scraping up the cards. I said, just between me and you, did you do it. I won't say a word. He said yes and he

went into detail about it.

Q: Were there other people at the table picking cards up at that point?

A: No, it was just me and Jason.

Q: You said he went into more detail. What did he tell you?

A: He told me how he dismembered the kids, or I don't exactly how many kids. He just said he dismembered them. He sucked the blood from the penis and scrotum and put the balls in his mouth.

[kerriew]

"What by everyone you mean Jesse Misskelley in his so called confession??. If that was a reliable confession he would have appeared in the Echols/Baldwin trial as a witness and could have reduced his own sentence. But he didnt and his confession was not tendered in evidence in that case. No-one else claimed to be a witness . There is no everyone.'

Jessie confessed like 8 times. He was never promised a reduced sentence and besides there is a constitutional amendment that protected Jessie from testifying in the Echols/Baldwin trial.

[incredulous]

Carson may have been a witness in the case but he wasnt a witness to the crime. I dont regard him as a credible witness - as a juror I would dismiss his testimony. Just my view.

[Sherry]

but Rudder said "Everyone who described the murders claimed that Baldwin was the sicko doing the most heinous damage."
 and you said "There is no everyone"

....and you were wrong.

[incredulous]

Sherry if you are claiming some kind of victory here I think that is a bit of a stretch... I was not wrong. If there was only one witness then by definition only one person can describe the murders. Carson - a jailbird - was merely repeating what he claimed somebody told him about the murders. Therefore, there is still no "everyone" describing the murders rather just one witness.

[Rudder]

No-one else claimed to be a witness . There is no everyone.

You quoted me, go back and read what I wrote. I said everyone that described the murders, not witnessed. If you go putting words in my mouth, of course it won't make sense. As to there being "no everyone", here, I wrote this last year for all you Baldwin groupies. The format may be fucked up because of the board layout change, but it should still be coherent:

1.) Jason Baldwin

While in Craighead county detention center (Aug./Sep. '93), Jason Baldwin confessed his participation in the crime to fellow
detainee, Michael Carson. According to Carson, Baldwin confessed that "I did it", that, "we sucked blood from a penis", "we
played with the balls after they were out of skin", and that Baldwin had then put the 'balls' in his mouth.[1]
Carson made at least two statements and testified under oath in court to these details. His story never changed and 15 years
later, he stands by his statements, he has never recanted.

Pro-WM3 supporters would have you believe that Carson was a "jailhouse snitch", out to garner favors from the authorities by
fabricating the Baldwin confession. However, this argument holds no water as Carson first contacted the police about
Baldwin's confession in February of 1994, a half a year after the fact, while Carson was free of the law and had no motive to
concoct a false story.

And when the "jailhouse snitch" scenario gets refuted, supporters will claim that Carson was mistaken about the confession
coming from Baldwin and that it was actually Carson's counselor, Danny Williams, that gave him the gruesome details of the
crime.
In January of 1995 (post conviction) Danny Williams sent Jason Baldwin a letter stating that he believed Carson had taken
details that he (Williams) had given him and fabricated the confession against Baldwin. He further wrote that he contacted
Paul Ford (Baldwin attorney) with this information but was not allowed to testify in court to refute Carson's testimony.[2]
What Williams, and supporters, fail to mention is that, the reason he was not allowed to testify is because he was questioned
by the prosecution in February of 1994, nearly a year before the letter to Baldwin, and at that time admitted that he didn't
remember what he may have told Carson. In essence, he recanted his statement, and his testimony was useless.[3]
So this begs the question, what was Danny Williams' motive in writing Jason Baldwin a year after he had recanted his
statement? Perhaps the same motive that Johnny Preston had in writing Baldwin?[4] Preston, an admitted homosexual, wrote
Baldwin in October of 1996 offering a similar story to Williams'. However, the Preston letter, as you can see for yourself,
reads more like a "Penthouse Forum" fantasy than reality. I think Preston's motive was quite clear, he wanted a sexual
penpal, someone to live out these fantasies with. And while Williams' has never admitted to being homosexual to my knowledge, he certainly hints at it in his letter,

"I am single and have no children so my financial responsibilities are small. I would
never try to buy your good graces but please let me know if I can send you anything. It would truly mean a great deal to me
if I knew I could do something for you."[2]

 Of course, this is speculation on my part, feel free to draw your own
conclusions.

Now, as to the substance of Carson's testimony, there are some corraborating witnesses. Carson testifies that Baldwin played
with the dismembered penis and testicles, sucked blood out of same, and put the balls in his mouth. Some pretty disgusting
details to attribute to the least likely looking of the three, wouldn't you agree? If I was going to lie about such
disgusting acts, I think I would attribute the acts to someone who more looks the part, namely Echols. Yet, in three separate
statements, the grizzly acts are attached to Baldwin and no one else.

1.) Carson [1][5]
2.) Misskelley [6][7]
3.) Jesse Hurst [8]

Now, to touch on the Jesse Hurst statement, while there are quite a few inconsistencies with the facts, there are enough real
details in his statement (knowing about Echols' alleged conversation with Holly George for example) that it would be a fair
assumption that he did indeed talk to Echols concerning the crime. Also, the fact that Hurst's statement was made in July of 1993, a month or more before Carson was even in Craighead Detention with Baldwin, makes the statements to Baldwin's involvement with the dismemberment and perverse behavior with the severed penis, that much more credible. While Misskelley's confession related that it was Baldwin who had the knife and did the cutting, Hurst's statement was the first to note that Baldwin acted deviantly with the body parts. There is no way that Carson, or Williams for that matter, could have heard, and elaborated on, what Hurst alleged.


[1] http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/carson1.html
[2] http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/dannyw_letter.html
[3] http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/dannyw.html (approximately at the 00732 marker)
[4] http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/johnny_preston_letter.html
[5] http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/carson2.html
[6] http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jmjune1.html
[7] http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jmfeb.html
[8] http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jeshur.html (approximately at the 02675s marker)



Edit: Relevant quotes from Carson, Misskelley and Hurst statements.


[1] Carson-----------------------------------------------------------

I said, just between me and you,did you do it? BALDWIN's answer was, "yes, I did it".

We had about two minutes to talk. BALDWIN told me that, "we sucked blood from a penis". He never used the word scrotum. He told me, "we played with the balls after they were out of skin." BALDWIN told me he put the balls in his mouth. BALDWIN told me that DAMIEN did this along with him.

BALDWIN said, when we get all of this over with he is going to kick MISSKELLY's ass.

BALDWIN told me he put the balls in his mouth and sucked the blood out of the penis.

[5] Carson--------------------------------------------------------------

BEALL: Okay. Tell me, what kind of gory details did he get into?
MICHAEL: He was saying like, okay, dismembered them, and sucking the blood out of their scrotums and playing with there balls in his mouth and stuff like that.


[6] Misskelley----------------------------------------------------------

RIDGE: okay, now when this is going on, when this is taking place, you saw somebody with a knife., who had a knife?
JESSIE: Jason
RIDGE: Jason had a knife, what did he cut with the knife. What did you see him cut or who did you see him cut?
JESSIE: I saw him cut one of the little boys
RIDGE: Alright, where did he cut him at?
JESSIE: He was cutting him in the face.
RIDGES: Cutting him in the face. Alright, another boy was cut I understand., where was he cut at?
JESSIE: At the bottom
RIDGE: On his bottom? Was he faced down and he was cutting on him, or
JESSIE: He was
GITCHELL: Now you're talking about bottom, do you mean right here?
JESSIE: Yes
GITCHELL: In his groin area?
JESSIE: Yes

[7] Misskelley-----------------------------------------------------------

DAVIS: Ok. Where describe to me what Ja, what you saw Jason do?

MISSKELLEY: He first he cut one of'm on a face on his left side just a little bit like a scratch. Then ..ah.. he went to the other one and got on top of him, started hitting him and then pull one of'm pants down and get on top of'm and cut'm.

DAVIS: Ok. Now you said that he first hit somebody, hit one of'm and cut him on the left side of his face. Ok was that a different person then the one he jumped on a cut with the knife.

MISSKELLEY: To my knowledge, yea, a different person.

[8] Hurst------------------------------------------------------------------------

RIDGE: OKAY, SAID HE CUT ONE OF THE BOYS PENIS OFF, WHAT DID HE SAY HE
DID WITH THAT PENIS?

JESSE: HE DANGLED IT AROUND AND LAUGHED

RIDGE: ALRIGHT, WHO WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE DONE THAT?

JESSE: JASON

RIDGE: JASON

JESSE: JASON

[Rudder]

Sherry if you are claiming some kind of victory here I think that is a bit of a stretch... I was not wrong. If there was only one witness then by definition only one person can describe the murders. Carson - a jailbird - was merely repeating what he claimed somebody told him about the murders. Therefore, there is still no "everyone" describing the murders rather just one witness.

Hey jackass, the murders were witnessed and described by all three convicts.

[Sherry]

First of all....

Rudder didn't say :Every witness who described the murders"  he said "everyone".

You are the one brought up witnesses. 

....and no, witnesses are not the only people who can describe the murder.  People who have spoken to the murderer and received first hand information from him regarding what took place can also testify to what they've been told about the murder.  Whether you find that witness credible or not is irrelevant.

I am not claiming any sort of victory....nor will I ever try to with you.  I can clearly see that no matter what 'facts' you are given....you will always dismiss them or explain them away.  There are many people here who have way more knowledge about this case than me.....and you're not one of them.

[Rudder]

Carson may have been a witness in the case but he wasnt a witness to the crime. I dont regard him as a credible witness - as a juror I would dismiss his testimony. Just my view.

yeah...see my "they was just lying on them boys" quote above. Lol, you people are so fucking clueless.

[incredulous]

Hey rudder,
thanks your piece of info made some good points about Carsons testimony... makes it more credible and I agree its very hard to explain why they pointed to baldwin.... Sherry I accept your point.. i think we were just taking a different view on the meaning of the words "describe" and "witness"..... and as Rudder noted I misquoted him  when he said described not witnessed (sorry bout that).