Dont they say he is retarted??

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[112885]

112885 Posts in 8614 Topics by 4618 Members
Latest Member: garrymoore

[Farm]

The word "fed" indicates intent.

So the whole "bottom/groin" thing that troubles you so... it's now YOUR belief that this was just an "accident"?

I choose to believe they weren't idiots on purpose.

I wish I could say the same of you.

[Mary7875]

Oh, and Farm... Did you finish "Case Closed"?

Yes, and I do recommend it. (as long as you aren't enough of an Oliver Stone fan to be put off by a loss of respect for him)

Garrison and company were fucking CRIMINALS.

I can't wait to read this, farm.  Thanks.

Honestly, in every high-profile case, there's somebody who wants to cash in by creating controversy.  The sad part is the large number of people who swallow it hook, line, and sinker. 

[addict]

The word "fed" indicates intent.

So the whole "bottom/groin" thing that troubles you so... it's now YOUR belief that this was just an "accident"?

It was either an accident or on purpose. Do you disagree with me? Is there a way of looking at it I missed?

[Farm]

It was either an accident or on purpose.

Well, which are you claiming THIS time?

Do you disagree with me?

Disagree with WHAT?

That it was either an accident OR on purpose?

Is there a way of looking at it I missed?

Are you uncomfortable with the way you ARE looking at it?

[flexj]

Going to Rant some more on this

Jessie Misskelly was a teenage boy who liked to get high, he drank, smoked pot, he chased girls, and he was a bully.  Not only that, but by his own admission, he had been "huffing" for 2 years prior to the murders.  He was allowed to stay out all night, whether he was wrestling or hanging out with his buddies to catch a buzz or get laid.

Does this sound like a mentally handicapped retarded boy, who functions at the level of an  year old as proffered by supporters?

Ask yourself, going to school, and having "special ed" kids in school, did they lead this kind of life?  Hell no!  Jessie's father new his kid wasn't the sharpest pencil in the drawer, but he functioned within normal range and his life style reflected that.

Next time you supporters post something the defense claims, think of the victims families.  Do you really want 3 convicted child murderers to have an opportunity of freedom because you don't fully understand the case or there is something you don't like?  When the prosecution presents its evidence at the hearings, and they are denied a new trial, can you walk away and let the families put at least this part behind them.  The have endured enough don't ya think?  Please no more conspiracy theories, you all owe at least that to the victims families.

Peace

[jusjulie]

Flex "Ask yourself, going to school, and having "special ed" kids in school, did they lead this kind of life?" ... where I am from the boys in special Ed are usually the biggest bullies .. maybe because they were picked on for being 'dumb' up to puberty.. and they usually hangout with the folks that are getting high (because they think that it's cool) . ..when they speak of 'wrestling' what kinda wrestling do u think they are talking about?

[~Steph]

I think that all depends on the level of functioning, which is Flex's point. A kid can receive special education services (resource or inclusion) for a learning disability. Having a learning disability means that you have a high IQ, but a processing problem that interferes with academic achievement. These kids were overlooked often when we were in school. The kids that were in Special Ed when we were in school (many many moons ago) were put in a trailer in the back lot of the school. Which thanks to civil rights law is no longer practice. Now the GT kids are in the trailer because the government still can't find enough money to properly fund our children's education... but that is another thread all together.

Now, I almost forgot my point... 80% of kids who are behavior problems in school also have a learning problem. What happens is that they act out and bully because they would rather appear mean than stupid. It's a cover up.. and yes, it happens a lot. But, it's much different today than it was when I was in school. The increase in services today creates it's own problem. The label is still a negative one. It's not always a good solution. When I was in school, the kids labeled "special ed" were the kids who were obviously physically and mentally handicapped. We hardly ever even saw them. (Yes, that makes me appear very old. I'm in my mid 30's.) They were not behavior problems that the general ed kids were aware of, and they weren't bullies. They also weren't running the streets at night and drinking evan williams. 

[jusjulie]

steph, u said earlier in ur post that the special ed students would rather be known as mean than dumb .. I agree with that .. but later in ur post u mentioned them not being bullies or out drinking even williams .. how can it be both? or am I missing something (i do from time to time) ..

And if the general ed students didn't even 'know' those kids .. how would u know what they are or aren't doing?

[~Steph]

I probably didn't make myself very clear. I was comparing how it was when I was in school to how it is today. My point was that when I was in school, most of the kids that were in special ed were the worst case scenario and weren't able to be out and about alone. Since then, things have changed.

I think that maybe flex is about my age, and that's where he is coming from. Maybe I should just speak for myself though. I have a tendency to talk in circles without trying to. It's a curse.

[jusjulie]

imma bout ur age .. a lil older, I assume .. I'm 37 .. where I grew up (NE Arkansas) .. the special Ed students had different classes than the regualr kids, but lunch etc .. was the same  .. and it's still the same today  ..

[~Steph]

Yes, you're right. The point was, though, that special education is much more broadly available to different populations of disabilities now. The majority of kids in special ed today don't necessarily have mental retardation, nor are they all in a self-contained classroom. At that time, services were much more limited. There are much more resource and inclusion services used now to treat disabilities that are not completely disabling regarding adaptive behavior and overall functioning. Least Restrictive Environment is set in order to keep kids who are eligible for special education classes in the classroom as much as possible. Now, even kids who are in self-contained classes are assigned to a regular classroom and go to PE, Music, Art, class parties, etc. with their regular class if possible. They receive educational instruction in the self-contained class only unless they need a special assistant one on one for medical reasons. Most still eat lunch with their self-contained class because they have special diets or need assistance with feeding (depending on the disability). It is very different today than it was 30 years ago. Of course, we didn't go to the same school, and each school has it's own protocol.


And if the general ed students didn't even 'know' those kids .. how would u know what they are or aren't doing?

I know this now (and probably was much less aware then) because this is what I do for a living. We study the history of special education services, ethics, and law in school as well as in continuing education in order to better serve students today.

[flexj]

I'm 44. But the point is, that he is not "retarded" as it is claimed, the real retarded that went to school had "special" classes and rode the "short bus". What jessie was, is a kid that had some leaning disabilities as well as disciplinary problems. Most of this was the failure of his parents to get him help. With freedom to go and do as he pleased, the drinking,drugging and most of all "huffing" only exacerbated his situations. Jessie was just a dumb ass. 

[flexj]

I think all this stuff about Miskelley being mentally challenged, retarded, etc., is being blown way out of proportion and being stretched out into something it's not.

I don't think that whether he was special classes has anything to do with anything, as the reasons for putting someone in these classes vary considerably. Many children in speacial education classes are behaviorally disordered, and can't be in class with the others because they are always fighting, destroying things, refusing to do any work, or just a general disruption to the rest of the learning community. The fact that Miskelley was drinking, doing drugs and inhalents, probably didn't help his academic abilities by any means.

However, what is being argued by the defense is that Miskelley's confessions should be thrown out because his learning disabilities made him unable to consent to such a confession, because he was too slow to understand what was happening to him.

I think that the defense's assertion is quite a stretch, because being slow at school or being a general fuck up in life does not mean that someone can't confess to a crime. If we threw out confessions of every criminal who did poorly in school we would have to empty the prisons...I mean cmon...a large portion of them are not the brightest bunch by any means.

I have heard supporters argue a lot about how Miskelley was "tricked," or "duped," into confessing, and my response to that is, "so what?" Police are allowed to trick suspects into confessing...this practice is used all the time. Police are even allowed to lie to get confessions. The defense isn't asserting that Miskelley was so slow that he was easily tricked into confessing, because There is no law preventing police from doing that. Many times, police will simply trick a suspect to admitting that they were at the scene of a crime, and that admission is enough to get murder convictions, because the other circumstantial evidence is enough to convict or force the suspect to plead.

I have also heard supporters use the mental handicapped thing to argue that Miskelley was too mentally slow to have even committed this type of crime, which is completely absurd.

So, if the mental handicapped defense is used, at least use the right legal defense. I gave heard so much about Miskelley's IQ try to be used as something convincing that I just want to scream. I mean, an IQ in the 70s doesn't make someone retarded and unable to understant what a murder confession is, or "what these dang ol' policemen are botherin' me about in this here dark room with a tape recorder..." Also, a person's IQ score varies, and can be easily improved about ten to fifteen points depending on the situation, especially if someone Is a general kind of fuck up and doesn't take the test seriously, or takes it with a bad hangover, or while they are stoned, etc. I mean, again, lets face it, criminals are not all the brightest people around. Miskelley's learning problems seem to be his inability to apply himself to anything productive, and show an extreme lack of parenting.

I think that the whole low IQ arguement actually hurts the defense, because it shows that Miskelley could have been easily persuaded by someone like Echols to assist in a triple murder...I mean if it is so easy to get him to confess to things, a criminal mind would have a field day getting him to commit crimes.

Nice post OG 

Is actual test was before the murders was 88...when the defense tested him it mysteriously fell to 72....How convenient...lol

[Storm]

When I was in school, and Im the same age as Steph im thinking..35.. it was like she said..we never saw the special ed kids, not even at lunch. They were in a separate building and stayed out there. Now my child now is in a special school, and they want him to go to a regular school with the sp ed classes there. He is severely mentally and physically handicap. The kids in his special school are alot like him, and some worse. The kids in the regular school system, to me, are more intellegent and able to process things clearer. Now my kid is 16. His IQ is like 20 if even that. He still knows right from wrong. He knows when he is doing something we dont allow him to do. He knows alot more then any of his give him credit for. Test cant always measure everything. According to my sons tests, he shouldnt even have a vocabulary. I see and interact with these kids everyday, and have been for 13 years. This is why I am so against the fact that supporters/defense lawyers try and make like Jessie is so stupid and totally mentally incompetent. He isnt.

[RustyShackleford]

Going to Rant some more on this

Jessie Misskelly was a teenage boy who liked to get high, he drank, smoked pot, he chased girls, and he was a bully.  Not only that, but by his own admission, he had been "huffing" for 2 years prior to the murders.  He was allowed to stay out all night, whether he was wrestling or hanging out with his buddies to catch a buzz or get laid.

Does this sound like a mentally handicapped retarded boy, who functions at the level of an  year old as proffered by supporters?

Ask yourself, going to school, and having "special ed" kids in school, did they lead this kind of life?  Hell no!  Jessie's father new his kid wasn't the sharpest pencil in the drawer, but he functioned within normal range and his life style reflected that.

Next time you supporters post something the defense claims, think of the victims families.  Do you really want 3 convicted child murderers to have an opportunity of freedom because you don't fully understand the case or there is something you don't like?  When the prosecution presents its evidence at the hearings, and they are denied a new trial, can you walk away and let the families put at least this part behind them.  The have endured enough don't ya think?  Please no more conspiracy theories, you all owe at least that to the victims families.

Peace

flex, don't you remember how much tail corky from "life goes on" used to get back in the day???



































i apologize for this post!

btw, apparently spending all that time with stidham made jessie dumber!