The WMPD

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77933 Posts in 6903 Topics by 694 Members
Latest Member: christietaylor

[Drew07]

First, I hope that this is the appropriate board to post this question/comment.  I have read through some of Farm's posts about putting things in the right place, but won't be the slightest bit offended if this gets moved or if I'm asked to change future posts to a different location.  --D


One of the things that has always bothered me about the case and the arrests is when the following argument is posited:  "The cops and the DA were desperate to make an arrest and because they were under such intense pressure decided to scapegoat Damien, Jason, and Jessie.  With no evidence (ugg) they went after them because they wore black and listened to heavy metal.  The cops are corrupt, the three convicted are innocent." 

Outside of being an argument of ridiculous simplicity, it bothers me to no end that for one to believe such an argument, one has to believe that the WMPD hated heavy metal and the color black MORE than they did people who butchered eight year old kids.  That is exactly what one must believe, and not only must one believe that the initial investigators all felt that way, but that every DA, every judge, every witness--everyone working for the state all felt the same.  You have to believe that Gitchell and Ridge were comfortable the night they arrested the convicted to fall to sleep thinking:  "Well, hot damn, there is still a murderer running around West Memphis, putting everyone in a fair amount of danger, but what the hell, we showed um--we scored a victory for those who hate heavy metal and teenage angst." 

In order to believe that, you have to assume that while the police were interested in properly handling property crimes, DWIs and simple assaults, while just waiting for the opportunity to ignore the murder of three young kids.  And beyond that you have to believe that they are more than incompetent police officers, but rather, that they are coldblooded sociopathic monsters themselves.  And you have to believe that every officer involved was equally sick and twisted.  You have to believe too that the judge and that every judge in the entire appeals process has the same sociopath tendencies, and that they are all comfortable knowing that they nailed the Metallica fans, but missed the boat on the child killers.

And you know---I could never buy that.  I want to be clear about something.  I do not think that every law enforcement officer is a good law enforcement officer.  I don't think that the police always do the right thing, nor do I believe that every criminal case is handled well.  Some make huge mistakes with no ill-intent, while fewer still actually change cases by manipulating evidence.  I am not stupid enough to believe otherwise.  But while I'll never be ready to argue for the sainthood paperwork for any of the cops involved in this case, I cannot buy, cannot believe, and cannot wrap my head around the idea that every officer involved in the case leading to the prosecution and conviction of Damien, Jason, and Jessie was so desperate for "someone," to pay that they decided that their legacy would be better defined by ignoring murderers in favor of incarcerating innocent teenagers. 

I realize that some will likely take exception to my argument, and I'll admit upfront that I've made some jumps that might not be semantically sound.  But not as many as supporters claim the police made, and none as crucial as that argument that the wrong people were convicted so that people who commit murder are left to live happily ever after.

I'm interested in understanding this more, and in getting other views.  Surely you've all asked the same questions, so if you have a moment to share with me what you've come up with, I'd appreciate it very much. 

Take care--

[Farm]

At one time, someone did a list of all the witnesses who would have to be lying in order for the convicts to have been innocent,.... it was absolutely staggering.

[flexj]

One of the things that has always bothered me about the case and the arrests is when the following argument is posited:  "The cops and the DA were desperate to make an arrest and because they were under such intense pressure decided to scapegoat Damien, Jason, and Jessie.  With no evidence (ugh) they went after them because they wore black and listened to heavy metal.  The cops are corrupt, the three convicted are innocent." 

Hi Drew,
 The reason that the supporters key on the heavy metal and clothes is that they do not want to acknowledge the fact that their was quite a bit of occult inspired crimes going on and several teens as well as adults were dabbling in black magic and Satanism.  I remember the era, and there were a lot of reports,  just not in the Memphis area but in a lot of area's. Further it is typical that when a person is dabbling in the occult as mentioned above, the attire is well, "black" and the music is typical "heavy metal". 

What makes things crazy is that there were a lot of kids into it, my younger sister for example use to fuck with me all the time, because I at one time was going to church and trying to do "what's right" in my faith, and she was into everything from atheism, reading books etc... Now she dabbled into things for her own reason and she grew out of that phase and leads a very productive life (so proud of her accomplishments)

Then you have to look at Damien. Read his 500, and factor in the infatuation with every thing in Black Magic and the Occult.  He took it further than most people did as it empowered him in his own mind.

Now this crime was not a what one would think of as a "Satanic Ritualistic Crime" but because of his history and testimony from others of what he was into and the claims of wanting to sacrifice, this crime would technically be what the Police would call an OIC " Occult Inspired Crime"  The Crime was more opportunistic in nature, but the underlying element was occult inspired.  This is what the supporters choose to blot out of their minds, and focus on the music, clothes etc.. It is all relevant to the underlying issue.  Hell if that was the case, West Memphis being kind of like a superb of Memphis, half the people would be guilty because Memphis is a town rich in R&B, Heavy Metal etc..

One of the things that has always bothered me about the case and the arrests is when the following argument is posited:  "The cops and the DA were desperate to make an arrest and because they were under such intense pressure decided to scapegoat Damien, Jason, and Jessie.  With no evidence (ugh) they went after them because they wore black and listened to heavy metal.  The cops are corrupt, the three convicted are innocent." 

This is a very sore subject with me.  It is true that at the time there were some issues with the WMPD.  It did give fuel for the supporter's contention that the 3 were set up, however, I believe that just because one might be corrupt in one aspect of his duty, it is not indicative of their overall performance.  I truly believe that some people can do some shady things, but when called for an important job as these detectives and officers were, they stepped up to the plate, as it was not only important that they get this right, but they truly wanted it right for the victims family and prosecution.  It has always bothered me that supporters who are "so compassionate and understanding" of others who do wrong, will not give the same consideration to the above mentioned.

[addict]

Personally, I think your post makes perfect sense, Drew.  I think it's an over-simplified version of the situation, but I understand there are people who make the arguments you're talking about.  Not every supporter believes the WMPD went after JJ&D because they wore black and listened to heavy metal.  Just like not every non thinks the murder was a satanic ritual murder rather than some sort of thrill kill or something. 

Personally, I think the WMPD could have been wrong without being "corrupt" or knowing they were wrong - like you said, "some make huge mistakes with no ill-intent."  I think the wearing black and listening to heavy metal thing was a good sound bite for a movie.  It's bullshit, if you ask me. 

I'm interested in understanding this more, and in getting other views.

I'm sure you've already been pointed here, but I'll do it again (just in case):  http://www.callahan.8k.com

[addict]

And, because I like to comment on myself, I think the idea that the WMPD focused on black and heavy metal is bunk, for the most part (I wonder about Ridge, every now and then (he bothers me sometimes), but I really do believe his main concern was finding the boys' killer(s)).  I'm not sure all the testimony about Damien being weird and wearing black had nothing to do with it though... 

The vast over-exaggeration of it was the sound bite thing.  If that makes any sense...

[addict]

The reason that the supporters key on the heavy metal and clothes is that they do not want to acknowledge the fact that their was quite a bit of occult inspired crimes going on and several teens as well as adults were dabbling in black magic and Satanism.

Only cause us supporters are nuts.   

Glad your sister is doing well now though!

Then you have to look at Damien. Read his 500, and factor in the infatuation with every thing in Black Magic and the Occult.  He took it further than most people did as it empowered him in his own mind.

I happen to think starting with 500 would be a bad move.  It was never even put in front of the jury until the sentencing phase.  I'd stay start with the case documents and statements and then work your way up.  But I'm old-school like that.

The Crime was more opportunistic in nature, but the underlying element was occult inspired.  This is what the supporters choose to blot out of their minds...

All that is really saying is that "the underlying element was occult inspired" because we believe Damien did it.  If you don't agree, produce one element of this crime that was occult-inspired in and of itself.  Was it that children were killed?  Was it that they were placed in the water?  Was it that there was an excess of violence used?  Or that there was not a lot of blood to be found on the banks?  Or was it that Miskelley or Damien said...?  If you start with Damien as Point A and then follow that to Occult Inspired as Point B, maybe it makes sense.  But you can't argue Damien did it because it was occult inspired because Damien did it.  At least not in any logical framework I'm aware of...

It is true that at the time there were some issues with the WMPD.  It did give fuel for the supporter's contention that the 3 were set up, however, I believe that just because one might be corrupt in one aspect of his duty, it is not indicative of their overall performance.  I truly believe that some people can do some shady things, but when called for an important job as these detectives and officers were, they stepped up to the plate, as it was not only important that they get this right, but they truly wanted it right for the victims family and prosecution.  It has always bothered me that supporters who are "so compassionate and understanding" of others who do wrong, will not give the same consideration to the above mentioned.

I agree here.  There are some issues.  Some people do shady things.  I think they probably did want to get it right.  I also think even good intentions can't overcome incompetence in certain areas.  Even before you add anything about shadiness into the picture...

[Rudder]

I happen to think starting with 500 would be a bad move.  It was never even put in front of the jury until the sentencing phase.  I'd stay start with the case documents and statements and then work your way up.  But I'm old-school like that.

Yeah, the 500 was the last thing I read as well. There is some fucked up stuff in there and I'm glad I didn't read it until I already had an opinion.

[sheer]

I agree too. Don't read that straight away.

[addict]

I actually think the trial transcripts are the place to start.  You'll start looking for documents as you go and wonder about stuff, I assume...  It's kind of cool that so much more is available these days.  It was kind of weird getting little pieces here and there for so long and trying to piece them together...  at least that's not necessary these days.

[flexj]

So you don't see anything before the 500 came out, that clearly points that the underlying issue to motive was his belief in satanic/occult?  I am having. Hard time wrapping my head around that given the tips that came in/statements that were given-heck even vicky tried to play detective. I am not saying that the crime was "Ritualistic" but what I do think is that the mutilation was consistent with occult belief, and I remember that they called Jessie and said "we did it". I think it was a crime of opportunity, with motive in Damians weird belief

[addict]

... what I do think is that the mutilation was consistent with occult belief...

I realize this is a mad cut of your post (I'll get back to the cut parts), but I'm interested in the statement.  What was it about the actual injuries to the boys that makes you think they were consistent with occult belief?

So you don't see anything before the 500 came out, that clearly points that the underlying issue to motive was his belief in satanic/occult?

Just look at your question... "his belief in satanic/occult".  Try to remove the idea that JJ&D did it and explain to me what was satanic/occult about it... 

It's a bit of a mess, if you ask me.  People with black painted faces, occult groups in the woods, drug deals gone mad, JMB/Damien are weird, etc.  People like to blame absolute evil on Satan - I think that's easier than admitting that sometimes people in this world are just really fucked up.  Who can wrap their minds around what was done to Chris, Mike and Steve?  No one sane. 

...and I remember that they called Jessie and said "we did it". I think it was a crime of opportunity, with motive in Damians weird belief

That's what I'm saying though.  I don't see how you can claim occult inspiration without falling back on the idea that Jessie said [fill in the blank] or Damien said/acted [fill in the blank].  Like I said, I understand thinking the crimes were occult-motivated, if you believe JJ&D did it.  But before "knowing" who did it, I truly don't understand it at all.  I will listen if you/anyone can explain it to me though.

[auburnesq]

"The cops and the DA were desperate to make an arrest and because they were under such intense pressure decided to scapegoat Damien, Jason, and Jessie.  With no evidence (ugg) they went after them because they wore black and listened to heavy metal.  The cops are corrupt, the three convicted are innocent." 

I've always wondered if wearing black and listening to heavy metal music was atypical in Arkansas in the early 90's? I assume that it was because so much is made of those facts in this case. I grew up in NE Ohio and was in grad school when the murders happened and it had been common fare here for at least 10 years or so, especially the wearing black. I had far too many friends who were really into the Cure, Morrissey, Siouxsie and the Banshees, and the likes. You couldn't turn around and not find someone dressed like Robert Smith. I myself had a long black trench coat that I stole from my father. Not because I was particularly into black but because I couldn't find a damn coat that wasn't shiny or bright purple. The metalheads I knew enough didn't wear black. They wore either ripped denim or stonewashed denim (yeah I know, way to look like a badass, right? ) and concert T's with flannels and ballcaps. How common was it back then?

[DogIsYourName]

It probably was kind of striking in many small towns in Arkansas, but Damien was beyond just wearing black - he was sharpening his nails to points, licking blood, carrying dog skulls and staffs, and visiting mental institutions.  That was probably not normal.  There are a few goth kids most places you go and they do stand out -- but I'm sure it was some of these other details that really caught Jerry Driver's eye.

Where I grew up the goth kids were few and stood out but I don't think the police were particularly interested in them. 

[Farm]

I'm sure it was some of these other details that really caught Jerry Driver's eye.

And rightly so...

Most teenagers invovled in fantasy role-playing games, heavy metal music, or satanism and the occult are going through a stage of adolescent development and commit no significant crimes.  The teenagers who have more serious problems are usually those from dysfunctional families or those who have poor communication within their families.  These troubled teenagers turn to satanism and the occult to overcome a sense of alienation, to obtain power and/or to justify their antisocial behavior.  For these teenagers, it is the symbolism, not the spirituality, that is important.         It is either the psychopathic or the oddball, loner teenager who is the most likely to get into serious trouble.

Dabblers - For these practitioners, there is little or no spiritual motivation.  They mix satanism, witchcraft and paganism.  Symbols mean whatever they want them to mean.  Molesters,          rapists, drug dealers and murders may dabble in the occult and may commit their crimes in a ceremonial or ritualistic way.  This category has the potential to be the most dangerous, and most of the "satanic" killers fall into this category.

It's as if Lanning was describing Echols - except his report predated the crime by four years.

[flexj]

Hi Addict,

I realize this is a mad cut of your post (I'll get back to the cut parts), but I'm interested in the statement.  What was it about the actual injuries to the boys that makes you think they were consistent with occult belief?

The genitalia area was removed, along with the multiple stab wounds to the area.  I have a book called "Occult Crime: Detection, Investigation and Verification" by William Edward Lee Dubois.   This book was given to law enforcement all over the country because of the rise of occult crimes.

Just look at your question... "his belief in satanic/occult".  Try to remove the idea that JJ&D did it and explain to me what was satanic/occult about it...

Well I can't just point to anything at the crime scene other than what I just  referenced   

It's a bit of a mess, if you ask me.  People with black painted faces, occult groups in the woods, drug deals gone mad, JMB/Damien are weird, etc.  People like to blame absolute evil on Satan - I think that's easier than admitting that sometimes people in this world are just really fucked up.  Who can wrap their minds around what was done to Chris, Mike and Steve?  No one sane.

 

I agree huge mess, but I think it would be harder today to blame it on "SATAN",  but we do know that statements were given to the police about Damien's involvement in the occult. See Callahan - Deanna Holcomb Shane Divililis ect..and you can see why the investigators leaned toward the motive of the crime as being an OIC.

I think that when the investigators were trying to figure motive, they had to go with what they had, that Damien was involved in occult practices, he did have the books and his own journal ( I guess if it was a bombing and he had books on how to make a bomb it would not even be addressed)

 All that was out before the 500, the 500 just really nails it for me.

I hope that helps you understand a little from my perspective